Ironman Sprockets

[ossagp]

Boy you read that a few times and you wont want to ride at all!

So far some of the best life I have experienced was with non oring if you do some maintenance. If you don't, the Oring of any brand will run longer in the two types of riding that I do. Either way the Tsubaki line has been my choice after trying several including Diamond over the years.

For my non oring/xring my son built me a chain luber/cleaner from a BBQ rotiserrie. You simply hang the chain on it and let it travel through an oil bath for a few hours. Comes out clean all over and you dont feel grit between the links. I hang them awhile and put them on. Do it right after you wash on the way home from your ride, and in all but the sandiest conditions the chain will run as long as an oring that is simply lubed.

FYI Tryce Welch did a little study on Xring chain and power loss. His method showed a gain once the chains reached operating temp as I recall.

[Jaybird]

The soaking of chains in an oil bath is old school, to say the least.
There is nothing at all to be gained by soaking a chain for an extended period of time. There never has been any benefit to using this method.

Oil simply forms a layer between the metal surfaces, and it only takes the time for the oil to get to the friction point to do the job. Maybe 30 seconds?
After that, it's wasted time and effort.

The problem with using oil is that it only takes a short period of time, once you are riding, for the oil film to be reduced enough that the protection from the oil is comprimised. Oil is also a dirt magnet.

[ossagp]

Bird, read the whole post:

The chain is not merely soaking, it is moving and making an even tighter turn than it would on a chain and sprocket. The system works really well on the nonoringed chains we have used it on. Since I am very sure that you have not used that type of appartatus (if you had you would have commented quite differently!) I don't feel that you are well qualified to critique it.

You are correct that the oil will act like a magnet to sand. Sand and dirt will get to the internals anytime a nonoringed chain gets submerged. That simple system given a few hours gets it ("dirt")out. I have used it, it works. Period. I am sure there are better things to use to lube with. But this does work better than any method of cleaning that I have used in the 40 years I have been riding.

[ossagp]

Anyone reading my last response to JayBird should realize that he and I picked on eachother over a year ago, on this subject. Jay sells a really good product to lube chains with. He made me a great offer on a gallon of it. I think in my luber/cleaner aka known as a BBQ rotisserie it would be way better than the crankcase drainings I use now. Based on the fact that the crankcase drainings used the way I am currently doing it outperform all the other methods and sprays I have tried, I may be on this roll of chain I have now for the rest of my life if I start using the product he so graciously offered to sell me (probably to shut me up).

[Jaybird]

First off, ossagp, I am a power transmission specialist. Chains and sprockets I know. I am quite qualified to comment on any subject concerning chains and sprockets, bar none.
I'm simply trying to help folks with a subject that there is much disinformation and anecdotal info, but very little real data being provided.

I'm sorry that I may have hurt your feelings by not displaying enthusiasm after hearing about your miricle chain gadget/BBQ grill. BUT...like I stated earlier, oiling the chain for long periods of time is a waste of time. And you will get no more lubricant to the friction pioints by flexing the chain more than it would on the sprocket.
A garden hose or the propellent from a can of water dispersant or brake cleaner will serve to clean a non-ring chain much faster and with far better efficiency than simply rolling it through oil.

Also, if you are not using the proper lubricant, it really doesn't matter what you do as far as application goes. Petroleum lubricant will only last so long. Simple motor oil will be flung off in very short order, and oil with tackifier to keep it there makes a mess, attracts dirt and grit, and is hard to clean.
There is no better lubricant for roller chains than dry-film lube in any instance, commercial or industrial.

If you understood chain dynamics you would understand why I say these things.

BTW...I have used oil bath apparatus that are meant to be oil bath apparatus, on mulitple occasions. I fully understand the concept.

[Shocknut]

Hehehe...you girls are silly.

Ossagp....whats that contraption sound like slapping a chain around all week? Not dissing, just wondering???

[therapture]

Dry film chain lube is the ONLY way to go in my experience. After switching over from the sticky (to dirt too) lubes, I have been using a moly based industrial chan and sprocket lube that I get from a supplier at my work. It turns the chain black. Big deal! It goes on wet, drys fast, and guess what...my chains and sprockets last longer. I use the Ironman setup with an X-ring chain. They are lasting at least twice as long since I went to a dry film lube. A good buddy of mine uses nothing but the Honda dry film chain lube on his CR250 and those chains last FOREVER....that is partly what convinced me, he is a machinist (a damn good one too) and knows a little bit about metal and related wear issues.

Those sticky lubes do nothing but wear out the chains and sprockets faster because the first dirt that hits them, stays there.


Someone will flame me no doubt, but I speak from personal experience and I have nothing to do with Digilube since I don't even buy his product (I am sure it IS a great product though).

[ossagp]

Shocknut
Lol,,,go find a bbq pit with a rotisserie and see if you can imagine hearing it make a chain slap!!

Jay doesnt know who he is talking to and we still have the same argument, or should I say misunderstanding. Power transmission specialist or not, cleaning the chain seems to work really well though, and somehow I havent been able to get throught to him that my contraption is simply a "cleaner".

I have tried lots of dry lubes,,,i think since the seventies,,,dri slide being one of them,,,almost like adding sand if you asked me. some performed better than that for me.

LOL,,guess I just don't understand "chain dynamics" !

[Jaybird]

Dewd, the method you use for cleaning and lubing your chain is your business. I only submit that the method you described is simply not the best method out there. Nor would I suggest it to anyone.

A squirt from a garden hose will probably dislodge much more debris in 30 seconds, than the rotissierre could in a month of rolling.

Using other than dry-film lube could be considered "like adding sand", but I have yet to see even the cheap dry-films be outperfromed by ANY conventional petroleum chain lube.
As therapture has also found out, there is no better sort of lubricant for roller chains.

Cleaning a chain lubed with dry-film is easy as well. A rinse off with a garden hose is usually all it takes to get all the dirt off. No ooey gooey crap with dry-films.

Another added benefit of dry-film moly lubes...even after you have cleaned the chain and sprockets, the moly will still be ther protecting your equipment.
It is a polar solid that adheres itself to the molecular structure of the metal and tends to stay put, even in heavy washout. Another big plus for off-road users.

[Aus_Rider_22]

Originally Posted by therapture

Dry film chain lube is the ONLY way to go in my experience. I have been using a moly based industrial chan and sprocket lube that I get from a supplier at my work. It turns the chain black. Big deal! It goes on wet, drys fast, and guess what...my chains and sprockets last longer.

Therapture, are there any specialist motorcycle dry film/moly based lubes out there that I could check out?

Thanks

[Crazy]

This thread has been going on forever. Id assume we can probably all agree looooobin it up will help prolong the life of a chain which in turn lengthens sprocket life.

[ossagp]

I'll steal some of Shock's vernacucular here and say this not to "diss" the bird,,but his reading must need some work. If it really doesn't and he really does think that spraying a NON ORING chain with a hose for a few minutes will clean it as well as the crude little apparatus I use, then I feel sorry for him. Cutting an old one apart or just taking out the master link shows that.

AUS,,,disagree with him or not, from what I can read the lube he sells is a good product. But when anyone tells me that a cr500 like mine would give you the same wear on a sprocket that my yz125 would I have to have some doubts.

Oring chain?? If my conscience would let me I would run them dry in some cases. We ride in lots of sand. It is tempting as I see others do and they seem to do as well as I do.

But until now I wasnt commenting on Oring/Xring

Jay, feel free to PM if you want.

[Jaybird]

LOL...why do I want to PM you?
I feel comfortable discussing this in public, don't you?

I'm really sorry that I have offended you and your BBQ rotisserie, but lets get real here.
I'm telling you that if you are using a dry-film lubricant, you can spray the chain off with a garden hose and it will be spick-n-span clean in no time flat.
No garden hose available? Use a can of brake cleaner (pref. non-CFC).
I guarantee with no hesitations that the can of brake fluid will do a better job than your BBQ. I won't argue this issue with you any more. It's completely rediculous. I'm certain the BBQ cleaner is cute though. Pics? Wait...save the pics.

Running a ring chain dry is another rediculous consideration as well.
Well...not rediculous if all you have ever used is conventional gooey crap lubes.
If you use a dry-film, then your chain will not collect dirt and grit...just as if it had not been lubed at all.

Just curious...is this the time of year that light deprevation can occur up there? (grin)

[ossagp]

Gosh Jay right when you tell me you are comfortable discussing something you change your mind. No surprise there.

Go tell whoever you took your class in "chain dynamics" that you can clean the pins and bushings out with a couple of minutes with a garden hose and or a can of brakekleen. Oh heck, you did say you were getting 3 years of racing and practice from a chain already,,so you really must be able to do just that!! Anyway, tell whomever you got the course from and they will probably refund your boxtops. Heck I am beginning to think you know as much in that regard as you showed you do about oil filtration sometime back.

I dont have any problems discussing those things with you here or elsewhere.

On the light, no, your geographical knowledge must not be quite up to your expertise in drivetrains. Again, if your reading skills were just a little sharper you might note that I did not say that I run any chains dry.

[Jaybird]

Instead of getting upset and defensive, why don't you go through what I provided point by point and explain where my flaws are.

I won't waste my time going back to read sprcifics of your apparatus, but I think you mentioned you were rotating the chains through an oil bath.
Oil has no solvent and is a very poor "cleaner". If the lube you used had tackifier in it, very doubtful that petroleum oil will clean any of it off on the outside of the chain, let alone the inside where the friction points are located.

Lets assume you didn't use a gooey lube. The rotating of the chain in an oil bath will serve up very little turbulance. In other words, there won't be a swift enough movement of the oil to actually swirl the friction areas clean. Perhaps after a long period of rotating in the bath it will have dislodged the interior debris.

But with a garden hose, you have lots of pressure...compared to a simple rolling in a bath. If you have not used a gooey lube, the pressure from the hose can wisk out any debris in the friction areas in no time flat.
Brake cleaner has probably more PSI in a concentrated area than the hose. It also is a very good cleaning solvent. A pressurized solvent is going to do a much better job of dislodging debris than any oil bath.

You also stated that your conscience wouldn't let you run a ring chain dry. I was simply stating that it was a rediculous consideration, unless you have been using gooey lube and riding in sand, then I can understand a persons considering running a chain dry.

You can paint any picture you want of me, and try your best to discredit me or my offerings. But unless you debate these issues point by point, instead of trying to discredit me every time I say something that doesn't fit your preconceived notion of how chain maintenance should be, you are never going to absorb any more information.
I'm simply trying to help here. I know the issues we are discussing well enough to comment. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ***.
Are you?

[DPW]

Jaybird,

Could you recommend some different dry-film lubricants(I know you sell one right) ?

[ossagp]

Ok, specicfically. Oil does clean pretty well. It is one of it's cheif functions in being in an engine. It is why d e t e r g e n t s are a big part of additive packages. (Don't start on oil here please, I see you have "shared" on another thread already.) Since you seem to be an expert on things you have never tried, here is a special offer for you. Send me one of your "hose cleaned" chains when you are done with it. Send me some oil you have filtered or I will supply some fresh stuff, and put it on "cute" little cleaner that I use. I will send you back the oil with your dirt.

I don't know where you are pulling what you are saying from. What I get this information from is trying several things in nearly 50 years of cleaning chains,,,starting with bicycle chains which definitely demonstrate quickly the power loss of a dirty chain. I look at it more in your case as being naive in thinking because you have an industry presented class that it grants you some sort of omnipotence. (For those you get some good presenters and some who although may have engineering degrees, were probably paid by and sent by the marketing dept.) Don't be confused into thinking that you have seen every side.

Your understanding of spray cans is kind of underwhelming too, and the confidence you have in their pressure and volume an inch away from the nozzle leaves room for some work there. Use a pressure washer if you want. I have a pair of them, have used everything on a hose you can think of, and in your case obviously I have used at least one method you wouldnt have thought of, (and neither would I).

Again, I don't doubt that some of the dry lubes work better than any of the wet ones. That never was a contention. Just that someone came up with a novel cheap way to clean a chain. Someone else made it for me. It really does work. So you see I have tried your ways, and you have not tried mine. I can't help it if you have that much trouble visualizing it working.
Take one of your "cleaned" chains and put it on some white paper,,,work the links and see what falls out.

But we should can this conversation and talk BBQ sometime. You probably won't even hear me bring up a rotisserie on that subject.

[Jaybird]

I don't need to see your gadget to know it is a Rube Goldberg special.
Sorry, I'm done with this. I see no point in it at all.

And I sure won't go into oil issues with you ossagp. I can see that would be futile as well.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by DPW

Jaybird,

Could you recommend some different dry-film lubricants(I know you sell one right) ?

Schaeffer has a moly chain lube that is of good quality.

Honda also used to have a moly rich dry-film in a red can I think. I heard it's been discontinued..not sure.

I think Amsoil also has a moly chain lube, but I have not tried it.

You can also find moly sprays at just about any auto parts store or farm implement store. However, these types of cheaper generic moly sprays will be nothing more than stoddard solvent and moly powder. They will very rarely have addtional additives for EP, Corrosion, or much to keep rings supple. They will also tend to be much wetter than a chain specific type spray will. The dryer the lube is, the less likely it is to collect dirt.

In the interest of not spamming, I won't mention our lube. It's easy to find out what it is though.

[Faded]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

In the interest of not spamming, I won't mention our lube...

I'll mention it then, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Check out the site, chances are you'll leave knowing something you didn't before.

p.s. Jaybird and I have no known affiliation, just making the info accessible for others.