Ironman Sprockets

[Satch0922]

all I can say is the Ironman sprocket is a work of art! I need one....

[Jaybird]

I've seen some Ironman sprockets that look like hell. Very poor workmanship.
No way would I spend that sort of money on a crappy machining.

Cost effective, rapture? Hmmm...I dunno...an Ironman costs about 4-5x what an aluminum does.
And another point, sand is a ring chains worst enemy.

Anyone who runs a ring chain in sand should take it off often just to feel it. See if it is still flexible. If not, there is damage to one or more reels.
Often times a rider will wear out an aluminum sprocket simply because one small section of his ring chain is damaged and he simply doesn't know it.
Of course the first thing he says is "those aluminum sprockets are crap".

BTW...just ONE reel that has a bad ring and allowed water and contamination in CAN and WILL eventually wear out the whole drive. It works on the teeth of both sprockets, and in turn, the worn teeth help to wear the good reels of the chain. A vicious circle.

[Reuel]

Originally Posted by DPW

The million dollar question how do you get an aluminum sprocket to last a year much less a standard chain?

Good question and I am definetly listening.

[DPW]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I've seen some Ironman sprockets that look like hell. Very poor workmanship.
No way would I spend that sort of money on a crappy machining.

Cost effective, rapture? Hmmm...I dunno...an Ironman costs about 4-5x what an aluminum does.

2x not 4x or 5x..not sure where you got that number from..

Originally Posted by Jaybird

If maintained properly, a quality aluminum sprocket can last almost indefinately. But then, you'd have to know what you were doing, and not simply feel that what you HAVE been doing is the only method out there.

How can an aluminum sprocket last a year? The chain won't last a year. I thought when you replace the chain you replace the sprockets too, right?

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Reuel

Good question and I am definetly listening.

You may be listening, but you obviously aren't reading.

Originally Posted by DPW

2x not 4x or 5x..not sure where you got that number from..

OK, maybe not 4-5x...but I sell high quality aluminums for $37 and I know there are other cheaper sprockets out there.
Considering that a super hard steel sprocket will wear out your chains faster, it is not a value to spend $106 on an item that will wear things out.
Marketing hype does funny things to people and the way they think though.

Originally Posted by DPW

How can an aluminum sprocket last a year? The chain won't last a year. I thought when you replace the chain you replace the sprockets too, right?

Proper care and maintenance of the chain and sprocket set is how they last.
The chain WILL last a year of hard riding if properly cleaned/lubed/adjusted.
No, you don't have to change the whole drive out as a set if you keep an eye on the chain and get rid of it when it reaches ~2% of it's original length.

Most folks don't perform proper or correct maintenance on their chain drive, so the rule of thumb is to change things out as a set. This isn't the rule for those who know what they are doing.

[Reuel]

Having rode in SANDY Florida for several years I have at least some experience in chains and sprokets wearing out. Finding the right spocket/chain and lube was a top priortiy for all riders in FL. It seemed to me that the sand getting between the chain and the sprocket teeth did the most wear damage. When oiling your chain you tried very hard to keep excess oil to a minimum as it was simply a sand magnet. We cleaned our chains religiously after every days ride (2 or 3 hours of actual riding). The factory aluminum wore out within hours no matter what you did. I suppose if you could stop and clean your chain every 10 minutes it would make it last longer. But in practice I would say the best we can expect is to clean your chain after every days ride. We used high quality aluminum sprockets, i believe Sidewinders that at the time were the best. Cheap AL simply will not hold up. There is no way anyone will get me to believe a $30 AL sprocket will hold up under sandy conditions, simply aint gonna happen. Good durable sprockets cost good hard earned money.

[alex83]

I would like to know how people "properly" clean their chains?

[Shocknut]

I don't clean mine properly but I spray it clean when I get the bike back home in the garage using a can of brake cleaner. Amazing the crud that comes out. That is followed by blowing it out with compressed air and then adding lube. It may not be the proper way but it's all I have time for usually. I am NOT going to pull my chain off and soak it in a hot solvent bath until my next ride. I can get one season out of a set but I CANNOT get 1 YR (2 seasons) out of a standard chain/AL sprocket combo.

I also like Sidewinder sprockets, but it's been at least 7 yrs since I bought one. It was used with a DID X ring chain and lasted a LONG time. Right now I am running TAG aluminum/DID ERT(TAG is same design as Sidewinder as far as I can tell) on the race bike and a cheap JT/DID Oring combo on the practice bike.

Price doesn't necessarily dictate quality on these things. Material is where it's at. But, I don't know anyone using 6061 AL for sprockets either. 7075 is a better material. If Jaybirds $37 sprockets are 7075 (or something better) and they have slots like a Sidewinder it's as good a deal as you will find. I am interested in seeing one and would like some info your lube too Jaybird. I hope it doesn't "cling" dirt or at least minimizes it. Currently I use Mobil 1 sythentic spray lube and it works well but still collects too much dirt.

[Roostman]

Alright, Ive heard enough sales TALK on here and am going to bust this thread wide open. Theres an old trick that some desert guys like myself have used VERY successfully and Im gonna share it with you people. Now this may not be the best way in ALL conditions, but works in the dry sandy areas as good as anything. Its called, dont use chain lube at all! A completely dry chain chain doesnt attract ANY dirt. I have personally used this method for a number of years when I lived in the CA deserts and rode every day for hours on end. Just simply align and adjust your chain/sprockets properly and none of the other crap matters in very dry conditions. OUT.

[Roostman]

PS. this only works in a completely dry enviroment and if you wash your bike, you obviously have to lube it to aviod rust.

[Shocknut]

Nice....but you are still gonna get the Jaybird "passion" speech now. I've run mine dry before too only because I forget to lube between motos. If I'm running my Xring chain I don't always bother with lube.

Dig this...a buddy of mine uses Gunk Silicone spray on his chain and that thing stays cleaner then clean. If nothing else I'm gonna give that a try too. His sprocket never has any dirt cling on it, shows NO wear but it is a Ironman/DID X ring combo.

[Roostman]

Well if I were selling miracle oil, I would preach too......

Either lube or dont lube, its all gonna have the same effect one way or the other.... and if you believe that there is a SPECIAL lube that is light years above the rest, Ive got some swampland for sale at a special price..

[Reuel]

Running dry sounds good to me. You gotta remember that its the oil you DON'T see that is doing the work anyway. Oil on the outside of the chain only attracts more dirt. Its the small amount of oil on the inside between the rollers that does all the work. I spose a good o-ring chain will keep the oil where it belongs - on the inside. Leave the outside dry and you will get nice long chain/sprocket life. I think I will try it on this latest chain/sprocket combo I have now. Its almost new and would be worth a good test.

[Roostman]

Im not so sure that it would be a good idea in your neck of the woods Reuel. If there is any hint of moisture in your riding area, your gonna be better off with some lube, ANY lube. Running dry is only an option in the dryest of conditions....

[Reuel]

Yea good point Roostman. The thing is, right now it is sooooo dry outside. If you are riding with someone you can literaly get lost and have to stop because all the super fine dust. But hey the worst that can happen is my sprockets/chain wear out early. I still may try it during these hot, dusty, dry summer months. When i moved here i thought "Oh boy red clay, yipeee". Well the red clay sucks bad. Most of the time it is hard as concrete. Some turns, the lead-in is so hard there are black skid marks from the tires on the dirt. Then if it rains it rurns slick as ice. There is very little in between.

[Jaybird]

Well, thanks for busting the thread Wide Open and recommending no lube at all. Wow....why din I thunk of that !

Yes, you can call my rants "sales pitches" if you want. But I can assure you that if you tried a quality dry-film lubricant that you would never go back to ANY lube you have tried in the past. You would find that it goes on water thin and penetrates to all the friction surfaces within milliseconds, and the carrier evaporates off leaving the lubricating chemicals or solids in place where they need to be. The chain will look dry and will attract NO dirt or grit.
It's hard for me to believe that moto specific lubes have actually went the wrong way in their thinking for many years and there really hasn't been any "good" lube available...but till now, that is the way it's been.
If you think the "Super Clean" lubes are clean...you will absolutely love dry-film and throw rocks at the Bel-ray...err..I mean super clean lubes.

I only peddle 7075-T6 aluminum sprockets. The highest quality aluminum sprockets available. I wouldn't recommend the use of 6061 grade aluminum sprockets to anyone, unless you are running a moped.
Vic Krause (Sidewinder) has nothing that isn't being done already in the world of aluminum sprockets. He is very proud of them though, as reflected in his pricing. (not a slam per se, on Vic and his comnpany...he has great quality stuff..but you will pay for it) I actually am still running one of his unadvertised chains on a 125..that has been on for three years! And no, it hasn't been in the trailer for that time either. (btw..that chain is still within spec., but as a result of a quality chain that has been properly tensioned/cleaned/and lubed throughout it's life...which means there is still NO wear showing on the sprockets that were mounted with the chain)

There are options one can do to improve the rear sprocket, like mud relief cuts, and hardcoat anodizing. I'm a big fan of the mud reliefs for woods guys.
The anodizing, in my mind, is overkill as the layer of aluminum that is hardened is very thin.

Bottom line, sand is the worst enemy of chains..both ring and non. What you want is a high quality aluminum, for less rotating mass...and a quality chain that is lubricated on a regular basis with a dry-film lube that protects the friction points, is easy as pie to clean as it is not one bit "gooey", and drys so it will not be a dirt magnet.
You will find that when you do use a dry-film lubricant, cleaning of the chain is as simple as a wash off with a water hose. You will not need any special cleaners to get the chain free of all dirt. And...as an added bonus, dry-film lubes that contain polar solids (like molybdenum) adhere to the metal of both the chain and sprockets, and even once you are done cleaning, you can see a black film on the teeth. This is the polar solids that are still adhered to the metal surfaces and will continue to protect from friction and load. Even if you forget to lube again...although, don't forget to lube again.
Dry-film also has another charactoristic to it that other lubes don't have...it is a fantastic water dispersant. In other words, by simply applying dry-film lube, you will drive water our from the hidden areas of the chain, just like silicone sprays such as WD-40 does. You can skip the WD-40 step if you use a dry-film.

I'm not a sponsor here, so I try very hard not to spam...SO go out and find some Honda dry-film with moly and see if what I'm saying isn't true.
Then once you are convinced that dry-film is actually what ole bird says it is...find the best dry-film motorcycle chain lube you can. I know of a couple that outperform even the Honda, which is a great lube.

The skeptics are never convinced from afar, they need to apply the science first hand before they come around to the proper way of thinking.

(wheww..these passion rants wear me out! ...LOL)

[Shocknut]

Ok....this is a bit different question for you then. Of ALL the chains on the market which brand do YOU feel is best. I have mainly stuck to DID but I did just remove a Moose (regina??) X ring from my race bike. It's still in good shape I keep it as a emergency spare.

Who the heck DOES make Moose chains anyway?

[Jaybird]

I can't say for certain, but I have been told that Regina does indeed mfg chains for Moose. I know for a fact that they mfg chains for other licenced names...some very popular brands at that.

OK...People are very happy with the D.I.D. ERT chains. In terms of sales numbers, they rate one of the highest there is.

Now for my personal opinion...I am a firm believer in the quality and workmanship of two brands that I don't even sell. Tsubaki and Diamond.
Tsubaki is the largest roller chain mfg in the world. They have the resources to provide top shelf equipment, and they do. I'm a stickler for close tolerence and quality materials, and I feel Tsubakimoto has both in mind.

Diamond is a longstanding American chain company that has been putting out quality equipment for many decades. They couple the oldschool thought process along with new age metalergy to make a great product.
They still provide a formed bushing on their non-ring chains. This method has been gotten away from with other mfg's process' that have gone the route of a solid machined bushing. There are benifits to the solid, shot peened bushing. But there are also benifits with a formed bushing, IF it is formed with precision. The Diamond standard chain has a small diamond shaped(imagine that) cut that is in the bushing itself. This little cut is placed at a precise angle within the chain reel at the time of mfg. What this little relief cut does, is allow lubricant to enter the pin/bushing area even if the lube wasn't placed on the chain properly. With a solid bushing, the only way for lube to reach the pin/bushing friction point is to apply the lube between the inner and outer sideplates. That is the only avenue to that point available.
However, as I stated, the Diamond chain has the split, formed bushing with the relief so that even if you place the lube at the roller only, it will have an avenue to the pin/bushing area.

I'm not real happy with the deal that Diamond wanted to offer to distribute their stuff, or I would. They are also not real big on spending advertising dollars in the moto specific area. But they have great equipment.
Not to mention they are Great Americans!

I am currently running the EK MRDG series non-ring chain on my 444F. One of the lightest chains available, but still quality made from top shelf metals.
The jury is still out on longevity, I only have four rides on the EK...and I had to adjust slightly after first ride. Very little elongation since.
Many chain mfgs are now proof-stetching their chains at build to take the initial elasticity away form the chain so we won't experience it during the first ride or two..but even with proof-stretched chains, you may well see a slight bit of elongation after first ride. It's normal.

With all that said...I have customers that purchase the cheapest (~$25-30) chains they can get, and they usually get a full race season out of them.
Of course they practice good chain drive maintenance and use the proper lubricants.

[pragmatic393]

While we're on the subject. How much does the chain o-ring really restrict?
It seems like a great idea,but does it really work?

I like the idea of o-ring chains and practice it, but after a few rounds with Mr Car Wash a good scrubbing, how can the internals stay "clean"?

[Jaybird]

There have been a few dyno readings that I've seen that show a difference of ~2hp by simply going from a non to a ring chain.


There is a finite amount of lubricant that is sealed into the bushing/pin area.
It is a fact that with the work and load at a friction point, lubricants will eventually become consumed after a given amount of work.

So, even in a perfect world...the ring chain has a finite lifespan, no matter what you do, you can't imporve on that.

The big problem lies in that only in a perfect world will the ring chain last as long as the lubricant will. It is way too easy for a ring, or rings, to become damaged, or to be violated and let dirt, grit, and water into the protected area.
Once this happens, grit can eat away at the friction surface, and water can oxidize and allow the resulting iron oxide to eat away at the area.

Once a ring chain has at least one or more links that have been violated, those violated reels will wear faster and grow longer than the rest of the chain. The sprocket teeth are machined to fit the pitch of the new chain perfectly, yet they are encountering a space of chain that is not of that length every revolution.
This wears at the teeth that the bad space comes in contact with. And eventually those teeth become deformed, and pass on this mis-match to the rest of the chain that was in good shape.

Enter in the super hard chrome-moly sprocket and the ring chain....the sprocket will not conform to the mis-match that the violated space of the ring chain is presenting. The hard teeth resist deformation, BUT the energy that would deform a regular sprocket is there...and this energy, since it is not absorbed by the sprocket, gets transferred back to the chain itself. This accelerates the wear of the chain.

Yes, the super-hard sprocket, that doesn't absorb shock and load, is helping to ruin your drive set, including other components such as wheel bearings.