Why does a 2 Stroke 125 make you a "better" rider?

[char393]

Well...this has been an interesting thread. John082603, you're certainly welcome to your opinion and it's cool to see the variety of opinions here. However, next time you feel the urge to call someone an idiot... please don't. You can disagree all you want without getting personal, IMO.

And...while I'm posting, I'm going to throw in my own opinion just because I can. I can see both sides of the argument since I've owned a 125 and a 250f. I can tell you that I really had to work hard to be fast (fast for me since fast is a relative term) on my 125. Did it make me a better rider? More than likely, but that's because I wasn't a very good mx rider to begin with anyway. When I switched to the 250f, everyone told me I was going faster, but I sure didn't feel that way. However, looking at pics and video of myself, I can honestly say that I'm faster on my 250f. Is that because I'm on a 4-stroke? Don't know... but that's probably part of it. It's probably also because I have way more seat time now than I had before.

Like Lawdog, I think the fundamentals that he mentioned make you a better rider.... that and seat time. I know I'm not nearly as tired after riding Effie as I was on the pinger.

Just my $.02 worth.

[the_privateer]

Originally Posted by LawDog101

The idea that riding a two smoke 125 will somehow "make" you a better rider is a myth. Proper technique, better conditioning, and better bike setup make you a better rider. Simply flogging the crap out of an underpowered motorcycle is just that....flogging the crap out of an underpowered motorcycle.

LD

lawdog we get it, you hate 2 strokes. but why do you feel the need to compare your 450 to a 125 so often. this thread had nothing to do with that at all, whether or not 2 strokes or 4 strokes are better or faster. I agree that proper technique and conditioning is what makes someone a better rider, pretty much by definition. it is my opinion that a two stroke will almost force these two things on you because of the nature of the motor's output.

its not just flogging the crap out of a bike, its a lesson in clutch control and traction. 125's are also very light and agile, which is exactly what someone new to the sport needs. I actually started out on four strokes, but learned more in the first month of riding my 125 than in years of riding four strokes, especially when it comes to clutch control and keeping the bike on the pipe and trying to be smooth.

I think a 250f or 450 lets you get away with a more lazy approach, which is counterproductive to developing proper technique and conditioning early in someones riding career.

which is exactly what I meant when I typed that a 125 makes you work for it.

[LawDog101]

I am not a fan of smokers and I make no bones about it. However, I have the EXPERIENCE with several, KX500's, KX250's, etc. before I make that assessment.

If you want to learn about clutch control and traction, take a big bore 4s out on a hardpacked blue groove track. And, my comparison between the two was only that which related to convincing those folks in my area to ride them, nothing more...

I don't there is anyone, me included, who can make any statement about "what a beginning rider needs" other than just biased opinion. I would say that a new rider needs smoother power, less revs, clutch, and other things to focus on to learn better. That makes them a better rider, not trying to fan the clutch, right gear, turn, throttle, etc. etc.

A 250f or 450 makes one lazy? Where exactly do you generate this opinion from? Try to ride a 450 full bore and see just how solid your technique has to be. From Experience, I can tell you it is not easy, nor lazy. I would say that it is the 125 that lets you be lazy as no matter how hard you ride it, it doesn't really ever get you in trouble unlike a big bore that will toss you on your head with hamfisted throttle.

I haven't found my CRF to be any more maintenance intensive than my smokers. (3 CRF 450's, 03, 05, 08 compared to 2 KX250's 95, 2000, two KX500's, Yz250, and Yz125).

LD

[the_privateer]

Originally Posted by LawDog101

If you want to learn about clutch control and traction, take a big bore 4s out on a hardpacked blue groove track.

I have. to me, the wide powerband of 4 stroke just makes it easier to keep traction with, probably because there is no strong jolt in the powerband. as far as clutch control, I hardly touch the clutch on a 450 regardless of track conditions.

Originally Posted by LawDog101

I don't there is anyone, me included, who can make any statement about "what a beginning rider needs" other than just biased opinion. I would say that a new rider needs smoother power, less revs, clutch, and other things to focus on to learn better. That makes them a better rider, not trying to fan the clutch, right gear, turn, throttle, etc. etc.

I don't deny that it is an opinion, "it is my opinion" is in my post. I guess I wasn't clear with my post either because I meant the lightness and agility are good traits for a beginner's bike to have, not the lesson in clutch control and traction.

Originally Posted by LawDog101

A 250f or 450 makes one lazy? Where exactly do you generate this opinion from? Try to ride a 450 full bore and see just how solid your technique has to be. From Experience, I can tell you it is not easy, nor lazy. I would say that it is the 125 that lets you be lazy as no matter how hard you ride it, it doesn't really ever get you in trouble unlike a big bore that will toss you on your head with hamfisted throttle.

I didn't say lazy, but more lazy because if I don't make this turn as fast as possible, or I'm not keeping momentum as best as I can, its okay because the torque will carry me over the next double, etc. I have ridden 450's, a 2005 yz450, extensively. I can tell you that I work much harder and exhibit more proper technique on the 125. my lap times are very close between the two machines (I do time them) even tho I ride the 450 with less gusto, I get away with it. at 140 lbs., either bike will put me on my head if not respected. 35 horsepower in a 200 pound bike is not underpowered in my experience, but the 450's most certainly are over-powered. if I tried to ride the 450 with the aggressiveness I show on the 125, I'd be taking an awful lot of dirt naps.

[john082603]

Originally Posted by LawDog101

What I find odd is that several of you (John, Shoei, and Low) do not even own 4-strokes, yet you seem to make statements that four-strokes are easier to ride, make you lazy, etc. How do you come up with this information when you have never owned or raced one?

You have no frame of reference. Don't talk about stuff you have no clue about.

LD

"Law Dog" you might take your own advice "Don't talk about stuff you have no clue about."

I own two 4 strokes and ONE two stroke.

[john082603]

I am a little slow, but I get it now... Many people just want to argue about 2 strokes and 4 strokes so they can not see past that. Who cares! We ALL know that 4 strokes are better all around MX bikes. That is not what this post was about until "Law Dog" started racing his 450 against TTR50s. That's cool. He is now the fasted guy in the mini class here on ATM.

Privateer gets it. That's cool.

Hey, "Law Dog" this is the 2 stroke MC general discussion area. Here's a link for you FETCH [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Good boy.


I guess I've been warned "Char393." I think idiot was very apropos since "Law Dog" was so off topic. I was not calling him "idiot" in the pejorative sense of the word. I was using it in the sense that he did not know what he was talking about.

[triplendo]

John, I hope you got some useful information from this thread. Maybe next time the title should include "if you have any experience in this subject". Some of the opinions you recieved are from riders with little or no experience riding or racing a 125cc 2-stroke. Weed those out and this would be a less heated discussion.

[MotoMan]

Originally Posted by LawDog101

A 250f or 450 makes one lazy? Where exactly do you generate this opinion from? Try to ride a 450 full bore and see just how solid your technique has to be. From Experience, I can tell you it is not easy, nor lazy. I would say that it is the 125 that lets you be lazy as no matter how hard you ride it, it doesn't really ever get you in trouble unlike a big bore that will toss you on your head with hamfisted throttle.

I haven't found my CRF to be any more maintenance intensive than my smokers. (3 CRF 450's, 03, 05, 08 compared to 2 KX250's 95, 2000, two KX500's, Yz250, and Yz125).

LD

I actually 100% agree with that whole post. I too have rode just about everything there is at one point in my life, and the 450's of today don't take any less energy to ride then a comparable 2 stroke machine. In fact like James said if you get out of wack on a 2 stroke you can sometimes power your way out even if you are a bit tired, you get sloppy on a 450 and get crazy with the throttle, well you better know what you are doing and have lots of energy left or it WILL get ugly. Riding a 4 stroke may make getting over some larger doubles right out of corners a bit easier for a less experienced rider, but frankly if you can do it on a 4 stroke you can do it on a 2 stroke, just a different technique to achieve the same end result.

On the maintenance thing, I really don't see what everyone complains about thumpers being so much more then a 2 stroke, I haven't had anymore issues with the thumpers then I have with 2 strokes in the past...it all equals out.

[Freak]

Originally Posted by john082603

I am a little slow, but I get it now... Many people just want to argue about 2 strokes and 4 strokes so they can not see past that. Who cares! We ALL know that 4 strokes are better all around MX bikes. That is not what this post was about until "Law Dog" started racing his 450 against TTR50s. That's cool. He is now the fasted guy in the mini class here on ATM.

Privateer gets it. That's cool.

Hey, "Law Dog" this is the 2 stroke MC general discussion area. Here's a link for you FETCH [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Good boy.


I guess I've been warned "Char393." I think idiot was very apropos since "Law Dog" was so off topic. I was not calling him "idiot" in the pejorative sense of the word. I was using it in the sense that he did not know what he was talking about.

I think Char was right on the money. All your doing is adding more fuel to the fire with your comments. You don't seem to get it. Time to move on son.

[MotoMan]

Originally Posted by john082603

I am a little slow, but I get it now... Many people just want to argue about 2 strokes and 4 strokes so they can not see past that. Who cares! We ALL know that 4 strokes are better all around MX bikes. That is not what this post was about until "Law Dog" started racing his 450 against TTR50s. That's cool. He is now the fasted guy in the mini class here on ATM.

Privateer gets it. That's cool.

Hey, "Law Dog" this is the 2 stroke MC general discussion area. Here's a link for you FETCH ThumperTalk. Good boy.


I guess I've been warned "Char393." I think idiot was very apropos since "Law Dog" was so off topic. I was not calling him "idiot" in the pejorative sense of the word. I was using it in the sense that he did not know what he was talking about.

Dude before you go getting yourself in a whole heap of trouble around here, I suggest you chill on the personal attacks. Calling someone a idiot is EXACTLY that, I don't care how you sugar coat it, its NOT allowed on ATM.

And if you are warned by a mod/admin via a PM....keep it in PM's.

[john082603]

A heap of trouble?

I started this discussion in the 2 Stroke MC General Discussion area because it is a 2 stroke discussion. It is NOT a 2 vs. 4 debate. If one can not understand that then one may be an idiot in the true sense of the word.

I'm done

[Silver_Fox]

To bad these threads always turn into a 2 vs 4 stroke debate, I don't think that was the intent of the original poster.

When you remove the heated portions of this thread there are some good points made.


The old saying that riding a 125 will make you a better rider may not be 100% accurate, but I do think that if you apply the same skill that makes a 125 work well to a 250f you will be riding the 250f to its potential. As stated earlier by Lawdog and Motoman, the 450 is a different story, you can't be lazy.

Keep in mind that everyones opinions are drawn from there own experience and that's why opinions differ greatly. To take offence over someone elses opinion is simply over reacting, this is only the net and intended meanings can easily be misconstrued.

[MotoMan]

Originally Posted by john082603

A heap of trouble?

I started this discussion in the 2 Stroke MC General Discussion area because it is a 2 stroke discussion. It is NOT a 2 vs. 4 debate. If one can not understand that then one may be an idiot in the true sense of the word.

I'm done

The issue isn't about the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke the issue is the simple fact that you sir came out with a personal attack by calling a member an idiot...THAT is against the rules. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is entitled to express those, but name calling is childish and should be beneath mature adults, therefore its against the rules. It was a simple debate until you dropped the Idiot comment, and then look what it turned into.

[john082603]

Surely you do get that a simple post was highjacked so that "Law Dog" could discuss 2 vs. 4 strokes? You do get that right? And, yes, I am upset by that. The people who want the information re: 125s for beginners DON'T want to hear from a guy who wants to race his 450 against a 125. This is a 2 Stroke discussion area.

You do get that right?

[MotoMan]

Originally Posted by john082603

Surely you do get that a simple post was highjacked so that "Law Dog" could discuss 2 vs. 4 strokes? You do get that right? And, yes, I am upset by that. The people who want the information re: 125s for beginners DON'T want to hear from a guy who wants to race his 450 against a 125. This is a 2 Stroke discussion area.

You do get that right?

Good job man, you just caused it to be closed, all you had to do was just leave it alone.