What's up with the Yamadog front brake line routing?

[MotoMan]

Originally Posted by Satch0922

gotta love fart humor....dude how did you come up with that? Not that Harleys would make you think that or anything..........

No....not at all. lol.

[mtk]

[QUOTE=nick novice][QUOTE=mtk]

Originally Posted by nick novice

Do you know what a patent is?

do you know what a sense of humor is??? the comaprison was an implication as to how ridiculous some patents are. as your "impression" that "fog hollow" was a town. how you came to that conclusion i have no idea. since i previously stated that it had been called "hog" hollow. i never considered the atc as a mid engine any more so than a motorcycle. that's why i thought a patent was silly as opposed to the ever popular interval wipers. gotta love 'em.

I've got a fine sense of humor. Post something that is actually funny and I'll use it. Your comparison between two totally different items wasn't. Since you can't differentiate between "patents" and "trademarks," it was a legitimate question.

As for the "Fog Hollow" bit, there are places called ___ Hollow. Remember the Headless Horseman? He lived in Sleepy Hollow. Sounds like a place to me. You also said "place," not "shop." Last I checked, towns are commonly referred to as "places." Sorry I can't divine your meaning from unclear wording.

As for the ATC, it was mid-engined, which at the time was a new thing. In fact, the trike itself was a new thing. Honda developed the idea of a big-tired offroad vehicle with three wheels and patented the engine location of said vehicle. The Yamahas of the time had the engines closer to between the rear wheels. The Kawasakis had their engines biased more toward the front. If you look at a photo of all three, it's clearly discernable. As a result, the Hondas had the best handling, by far, of any of them. Look at Honda's new streetbike suspension with the top shock mount attached to the swingarm. It's patented. Look at Dr. Rob Tuluie's Tu-lar-is roadrace bike; he's got a half dozen or more patents on his rear suspension design.

At least in the US, there is NO requirement that the idea works or even obeys the laws of physics. There are at least a dozen "perpetual motion" machines that have been patented in the US. Nevermind that they violate the laws of thermodynamics, they're still patented. The idea doesn't have to be good, it just has to be new. In Honda's case, it was both new and functional, so they protected it. As a result, they owned the ATC market. As I recall, it wasn't until the last year before ATCs were pulled from the market that Yamaha and Kawasaki came out with a proper mid-engined sport trike. The Yamaha model, the Tri-Z 250, has to be one of the most rare ATCs of all time since by that point Honda's ATC250R owned the market segment.

[psycho393]

Hey I'm going to split this up so that it's not cobbled together in the end.
[QUOTE=mtk]

Originally Posted by nick novice

Powering one with an engine, positioned in the center of the vehicle, however, most definitely WAS a new idea. So Honda did the smart thing and applied for, and recieved, a patent on it. Now maybe it was just a Japanese patent and not a US patent, I don't really know.

Yes it would have most likely been a Japanese patent but a mechanical one and that would be recognized by the US patent office.



[QUOTE=mtk]

Originally Posted by nick novice

Your car have interval wipers on it? Guess what? Those were patented by their inventor. The auto companies stole his idea and used it. After a legal fight which lasted several decades, he won his case and they all had to pay him a gigantic sum of money (the number $340 million sticks in my mind for some reason). He got royalties for every car ever built with interval wipers during the period of his patent. Sure, it was a really simple idea, but it was his idea.

I've read about this one and it always has stuck out in my mind also. Amazing how that works. Kind of like the Xerox patent on copy machines that kept competition out of the market for almost ever and then it ran out and copy machines got cheap and more reliable.


[QUOTE=mtk]

Originally Posted by nick novice

It's called intellectual property and it's one of the things that makes this country great. Come up with a better mousetrap and protect that idea with a patent and it can make you rich. Without it, there is little motivation to come up with new ideas since it won't benefit the innovator. Greed drives human advancement. That's why communist nations simply cannot compete with capitalist ones; there's no motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum because doing so won't better your lot in life.

How does this fit with the start of the industrial revolution that began with love if I am not mistaken. If I remember right it was a man who wanted to make it easier for his wife to sew things, I believe that his last name was Singer....

[psycho393]

Originally Posted by Satch0922

gotta love fart humor....dude how did you come up with that? Not that Harleys would make you think that or anything..........

Well I know a very funny hog rider. Lets just say he didn't support Harley's claim to their exhaust note and in actually had hi own exhaust note theory that the patent office should take into consideration.

[mtk]

Originally Posted by psycho393

I've read about this one and it always has stuck out in my mind also. Amazing how that works. Kind of like the Xerox patent on copy machines that kept competition out of the market for almost ever and then it ran out and copy machines got cheap and more reliable.

The only bummer for the interval wiper guy is that he never got to enjoy the fruits of his invention. He was either a dottering old man or dead by the time the money rolled in, I can't remember which. I think he was still alive and if so, at least he got to give 'em one of these:

Originally Posted by psycho393

How does this fit with the start of the industrial revolution that began with love if I am not mistaken. If I remember right it was a man who wanted to make it easier for his wife to sew things, I believe that his last name was Singer....

Honestly, I don't know the details of the start of US patent law. I just know this is a major problem we have with the Chinese. They have no respect whatsoever for intellectual property rights, which is why they turn a blind eye to DVD piracy, software piracy, and the like.

One thing that is a shame is the changes in the US Patent Office over the years. Patents used to be researched not only to make sure they were new ideas but also to make sure they were functional and actually worked. The latter no longer happens. That's how you get patents for perpetual motion machines and other such fantasy items.

[psycho393]

Originally Posted by mtk

The only bummer for the interval wiper guy is that he never got to enjoy the fruits of his invention. He was either a dottering old man or dead by the time the money rolled in, I can't remember which. I think he was still alive and if so, at least he got to give 'em one of these:

lol yeah I think the other part of that was that his lawyers ate most of it up when he finally got it.

Originally Posted by mtk

Honestly, I don't know the details of the start of US patent law. I just know this is a major problem we have with the Chinese. They have no respect whatsoever for intellectual property rights, which is why they turn a blind eye to DVD piracy, software piracy, and the like.

One thing that is a shame is the changes in the US Patent Office over the years. Patents used to be researched not only to make sure they were new ideas but also to make sure they were functional and actually worked. The latter no longer happens. That's how you get patents for perpetual motion machines and other such fantasy items.

I would agree that the chinese are horrible with their patents ect.... However as part of their WTO requirements they will have to ammend that. The only weird thing is that China joined the WTO in 78 and now as of 03-04 they are starting to seriously take steps to meet their requirements

[mtk]

Yeah, the lawyers got a third or maybe even half.

But $170 million is still a nice pile of money.

If you can fill a swimming pool with $100 bills, it's enough for me.

[twoofeach]

I guess you guys didn't hear MTK is a lawyer/engineer/esquire. Also, I hope you haven't had the chance to hear psycho fart or belch. I wouldn't wish that upon anybody.

The CR routing works because it's has less resistance than the tight radius on the bottom of the fork used by Yamaha. Actually, the motoman393 website has a detailed section for making the conversion.

[psycho393]

Originally Posted by twoofeach

I guess you guys didn't hear MTK is a lawyer/engineer/esquire. Also, I hope you haven't had the chance to hear psycho fart or belch. I wouldn't wish that upon anybody.

Hey who told you?

[mtk]

Originally Posted by twoofeach

I guess you guys didn't hear MTK is a lawyer/engineer/esquire. Also, I hope you haven't had the chance to hear psycho fart or belch. I wouldn't wish that upon anybody.

The CR routing works because it's has less resistance than the tight radius on the bottom of the fork used by Yamaha. Actually, the motoman393 website has a detailed section for making the conversion.

Actually, I'm just an engineer. Law school will come after I get a PhD and an MBA.

As for that being the reason that the CR routing works better, I don't buy it. Resistance doesn't really come into play in hydraulics because you're really not moving much fluid. Every banjo bolt on the system is a 90 degree turn and a pretty complex path for the fluid to follow and it doesn't hurt performance.

However, the Yamaha routing would be real PITA to get bled properly and I'll bet that is the main problem with that routing. Not to mention exposing the line to more damage. Besides, everyone knows Honda is just better, period.

[psycho393]

Originally Posted by mtk

However, the Yamaha routing would be real PITA to get bled properly and I'll bet that is the main problem with that routing.

How can this be the case when the caliper is removed and and the line bled from the bottom to the top? What we do where I am from is to take a big syringe and fill it full of brake fluid, then fill the brake system from the caliper to the master cylinder.

[mtk]

Removing it changes everything. I don't disassemble the bike to bleed the brakes on any bike, street or dirt, unless I absolutely have to do it. I have a MityVac so that's what I use to bleed any hydraulic system. Works better than that "pump it and hold" crap, that's for sure.

[MotoMan]

Originally Posted by psycho393

How can this be the case when the caliper is removed and and the line bled from the bottom to the top? What we do where I am from is to take a big syringe and fill it full of brake fluid, then fill the brake system from the caliper to the master cylinder.

Exactly the way I do it, except I don't remove the caliper.

[twoofeach]

Originally Posted by mtk

Actually, I'm just an engineer. Law school will come after I get a PhD and an MBA.

As for that being the reason that the CR routing works better, I don't buy it. Resistance doesn't really come into play in hydraulics because you're really not moving much fluid. Every banjo bolt on the system is a 90 degree turn and a pretty complex path for the fluid to follow and it doesn't hurt performance.

However, the Yamaha routing would be real PITA to get bled properly and I'll bet that is the main problem with that routing. Not to mention exposing the line to more damage. Besides, everyone knows Honda is just better, period.

My bad. The cable is hydraulic...duh. I was working on my kid's bike and it has drum brakes in the front wheel and had that stuck in my mind. Anyway, the cable on the Honda brake line is shorter. That is, I believe what makes the difference it it's performance. I believe the patent expired and all the new models have the routing except Yamaha because they would rather burn in hell than admit something that Honda devised is better than their own.

[mtk]

Originally Posted by twoofeach

My bad. The cable is hydraulic...duh. I was working on my kid's bike and it has drum brakes in the front wheel and had that stuck in my mind. Anyway, the cable on the Honda brake line is shorter. That is, I believe what makes the difference it it's performance. I believe the patent expired and all the new models have the routing except Yamaha because they would rather burn in hell than admit something that Honda devised is better than their own.

You might want to check the 2005 YZ250 again... that sure looks like the "CR routing" to me.

The extra line may make a difference. I keep forgetting that the stock lines are rubber, not stainless, so they do expand when you apply the brake (hold the line in your hand and pull the lever and you can feel it). That will cut down the power and feel of the brake a bit.

[04whyzee]

The reason CR style brake routing it better is simply because the fluid has a shorter cable to run through so you get better feel and less spongyness.