Switching my YZ to ATF?

[Yardpro393]

here's a quote from that site
"ATF, in general , works well in automotive standard gearboxes. I was concerned,as you are, when I first switched in 1967!!! 28 years in several street and racing Lotus Cortinas and Elan gearboxes, Leeson, Jack Knight, Ford, all worked perfectly and never had a problem. The gearboxes ran cooler and shifted smoother but they WERE a bit noisier in normal operation. Ford used ATF as standard OEM in my 1983 Thunderbird T-Coupe and I had over 200,000 miles when I traded it in 1995. There are extensive threads dealing with all this but, I don't have the patience to look them up. I am sure the folks out there that will speak to the added leakage problem but, in all honesty, I just have not had that problem. Several mfgrs. aside Ford are currently using ATF as standard in manual transmissions. I am even contemplating using ATF synthetic in the gearbox of my 1948 Norton at next service to see if it will smooth up the shift"

and another
PEW,
"From a user perspective: I have Dexron III in my Borg Warner T5 manual gearbox fitted to a 3.8 litre V6 with 478,000 Klms (about 250,000 miles) and have had no problems to date. It is changed every 50,000 klms.
The change to ATF came on the advice from Borg Warner Australia who confimed the suitability.
Practically there is no difference for the driver ; the cold shifting is smooth and notch free and the 'box is as quiet as it was previously.
Hope this is of some help.
Cheers, Pete."

the only thing negatice about any sort of chemical reaction is the EP (extreme pressure) additaves (sulphurs) found in MOTOR OILS cuasing erosion to the syncronizer materials (they are soft brass). this refers to motor oil and not atf, and there are no syncronizers in a bike transmission. they are constant mesh.

04 whyzee
run whatever you wish in your bike. I for one am not trying to talk you into one or the other. but there is no chance of harming your bike if you decide to run atf. If the the atf dammages your bike, gust send me the engine, and i'll fix it for you ... pro bono. that's how sure i am.

[Jaybird]

Type F is what should be used as well. Other than type F can also contain friction modifiers that can make shifting a bit notchy.

If you ever have your bike sitting in neutral, after starting it in the cold weather, and the bike wants to lurch forward.....Or if you have a notchy feeling during shift, Type F ATF would be my first recommendation to rid yourself of these problems.

I agree that synthetic motor oils will far outlast any ATF as far as boundry protection of the gears, but we should be changing out our fluid much sooner than the life expectancy of sythetic oil. If you chang out your oil once a year, whether it needs it or not, then by all means use the highest dollar synthetic oil you can find...and pray!

No matter what you use, or what your bike likes best, change it out often.

[hardlydangerous]

I mostly use Amsoil 2000 Synthetic 75w-90 gear lube in all ATV and cycle gearboxes.
For the folks that don't want to use gear lube I use synthetic engine oils
I've noticed not ill effects using the gear lube and most customers find they have quierter and smoother shifting over some of the other mentioned.

With the amsoil there is no need to change it near as often. Since it's A TRUE 100% synthetic water will not mix. simply drain it, filter it through a coffee filter and re-use it.

I've talked with several well know endurance desert racers that use the same products and methods.


IMO use what you want and can afford.

[Jaybird]

OK, let me get this straight.....you recommend your customers use Amsoil, and they should filter it through a coffee filter and re-use it.

You can't hardlybeserious, can you?

[Woody_393]

Uh, I thought the same thing...

[hardlydangerous]

Originally posted by Jaybird
OK, let me get this straight.....you recommend your customers use Amsoil, and they should filter it through a coffee filter and re-use it.

You can't hardlybeserious, can you?

Very serious
I've seen the test results.

Amsoil has a sampling program. send in a sample of the oil and they will tell you if it needs changing or not.
I've seen gear boxes, Tcase and differentials with hundreds of thousands of miles on them and the lab results com back perfect. And yes many of these have clutch plates weather it's a locking or limited slip differencial or vicious coupling Transfercase.

Thats the difference using a pure based group 4 synthetic and a petro based lube.

With Amsoil 2000 75w-90 Water and oil can't mix So when you filter the oil ALL of the dirt is trapped in the filter and any water is soaked up.
With cheaper oils with a petro base once a slight bit of water gets in there the oil turns cloudy and the oil is no good.

[hardlydangerous]

AMSOIL Series 2000 75w-90 Synthetic Gear Lube.

SERVICE LIFE

AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic Gear Lube lasts longer than conventional petroleum gear lubes do. In non-commercial passenger vehicles operated under normal conditions, AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic Gear Lube does not have to be drained. In cases of severe water or dirt contamination, a chemical lube analysis can determine if the gear lube is still serviceable.

In commercial vehicles operated under normal conditions, AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic Gear Lube may be used up to five times longer than petroleum gear lubes may be used

[ossagp]

Most all the oil companies will test for you. Caterpillar is really reasonable on running a very non slanted test. I think I wrote somewhere on here that we all throw away a lot of good oil. In the early 90's I was sending lots of oil samples off just as CYA when doing some testing for warranties. I sent lots of oil off for myself with them. I had mobile 1 that was over 10,000 miles old in a car that was still good, I had some that had run over 1000 miles in my xr600, and still like new. Transmission oils ditto.

Separating with a filter is done lots of times where bulk contamination is done, water comes out when it freezes from oil and fuel.

Don't be afraid to save bulk amounts,,if it is quarts etc,,,you may not want to go to the trouble, but a spin on filter like a car or heavy duty truck uses works great when you set it up to pump through one of those electrical drill type units,,you can get a spin on mount from WIX for about 10 dollars and build one.

[Jaybird]

What is the micronic rating of a coffee filter?
What water are you talking about that may contaminate my dino oil?

Guys...please...you are way overboard here.
Marketing fluff is great for salesmen, but this is real world here.

hardly,
You are making quite a blanket statement there when you say ALL particulate is removed during a coffee filtration. Sounds very much like something that would come from a rep.

You can run the finest synthetic oil known to exist and there will still be some particulate stuck to a magnetic drain plug. Granted the oil may still well be of some use, but that usefulness isn't enough to handle protecting the parts from particulates that are present.
That is why you need to change out whatever you use often.

I feel much better, and am sure my motor is much better off, when I use $1.00 a quart ATF and change it out after every ride or two, than anyone else would be by running the very best synthetic gear oil for a half a season.

[Thump_This]

i used to use $1 quart ATF also from Pepboys without frction modifiers. it worked amazingly good IMO.

[DIRT MOVER]

I got a good laugh reading this but it sure was long.According to Jaybird;anal-itical data is merely opinion with suger coating.and the other guy named yardpro393 just quoted as nesisary from that page that was mentioned to fit his arguement.Looks like he missed quite alot there.I`d like to know what you guys think you are adding when you pour atf-it was a good point about the additive package.I`ll stick with the amsoil sythetic

[psycho393]

Ah ha you guys have a convert. I'll be switching to ATF in my ride pretty much next time I change the oil. From what you guys have said it seems like a good idea. Although I won't do it in my car quite yet.

[FFRacing11x]

OK, I have read all the posts and either I am blind or just stupid. Exactly what is the benefit of running ATF vs trans oil? What are all the ATF users trying to get that trans oil does not offer? I must have missed it somewhere, but don't know where.

[Thump_This]

they arent gaining anythig. jsut saving some $$$$

[Jaybird]

No completely so, thump_this....
I mentioned earlier about cold weather surging of the bike. ATF is a quick remedy for this with most two-strokes.

Some bikes respond really well to ATF and others don't. Sometimes it makes sense to feed the bike what it likes.

Also, I use ATF becasue it sort of consolidates my fluids, as I can run ATF in my 2stroke motor, forks, and juice clutch.

Saving money is a plus though.

And yes, Dirtmover, this is simply opinion. But, realise that many folks, including myself, have done things like this longer than some of the members here have been alive.
Simply passing on method that has worked for ages with good results.

If one man uses ATF and the other high-dollar synthetic, and they both see the same amount of wear, in the same period of time...who is the smarter of the two? Or better yet, who has the coin for clutch plates? Both are going to need them at about the same time.

[ossagp]

I guess we could ask the question why use anything that the manufacuturer didnt recommend? In most cases we would all be running motor oil in the 10-40 etc range in our two strokes and maybe a little heavier in our 4 strokes. So why any kind of transmission oil?? I dont think I have a honda OE manual that asks for it. Suzuki Ditto. My YZ the same.

[ossagp]

Jay
If you ride in water,,you get it inside your engine. If you have a liquid cooled machine you get it that way too. Don't believe me? have yours analized. I did that as I mentioned and small amounts of coolant were found in the oil. The dispersants in just about any oil will pick it up and hold it in the small amounts we are talking about. It is one of the reasons I buy something that I can change each ride,,like the $1.00 a quart ATF.

The bulk salvaging that I spoke of is a different subject. The salvage method I mentioned with the freezing and filter is done in mining and construction operations when a larger quantity of oil has gotten contaminated. Decant, filter, freeze if necessary. Centrifuge type salvage filters are used as well. OH,,and the filter they use in some cases looks a lot like a coffee filter. Micron rating in its simple form is almost not worth reading. Beta Ratio is something you may want to learn about if you don't already know it.

[Jaybird]

Dispersants really don't "pick up" water per se. What they do is attract both oleophilic as well as hydrophilic molecules, which don't attract each other. (oil and water don't mix)
The dispersant will break down the molecules so a mixing, or emulsion, can take place.
The water is already there to begin with. A dispersant will only change how the oil carries the water.

I agree that riding through water could possibly cause some water to enter, but to have coolant in your oil is not a natural event. Ther has to be some seal issues if you have coolant in the oil.

I am very very familiar with oil and the filtration of such.
Believe me, I've seen mucho demonstrations by salesmen who use coffee filters for their spiel. Quite funny, actually.
When we talk about retrieving patricles from an oil, micron rating of a filter is of the utmost importance. Beta Ratio is the term that gets used in more smoke and mirrors marketing, since it is easily manipulated. Micronic rating cannot be manilulated. It is what it is.
In fact, you can't arrive at a beta ratio without knowing the precise micron rating of a given filter.
Both points are moot when dealing with a 2-stroke motor. Now, on a 4 stroke that uses an oil filter, these issues come into play.
Since we have little control over the purity of our clutchbox oil, we should change it out often. Filtering it through a coffee wilter will allow particulate to remain, I don't care what Mr. Amsoil salesman says.

ALso....mfg's recommend products to be used on our bikes. Just becasue they recommended them, doesn't mean they are the best product that can be used. It only means a couple of things...one, the product is sufficient to meet their requirements, two, they probably have an OEM deal with the product mfg that mandates they recommend the said product. (more marketing games)
Just about any manula will recommend using a motor oil for lubrication of the chain...well, motor oil is fine to use for protection of the friction points of the chain, however what they don't tell you is that is you don't keep that oil film at approx .001" thick at every friction point, wear can and will begin. (about 10 mins of riding will wear it out)
They also don't inform you that the oil is a dirt attractor and will draw in particles that will eat your chain fast. My point is that you can't simply go by the manual as the gosphel.

[hardlydangerous]

I don't sell Amsoil. I wish I did or maybe Redline or Royal purple

I only use it in my own bike and some of my customer’s bikes. The ones that want cheaper oils get Mobil 1.
I don't push any products I only recommend a few that have proven to me to be better then others.

Think what you want.

Most companies only claim you need to change the oil every few months. That's very likely true if you are using top of the line synthetics.
But all of a sudden they guys that drain it every few rides to filter any dirt, grit or water between changes are idiots or salesmen?

OK

So why don't you change the engine oil, Trans fluid after every time you drive your car? Because it's filtered?
What about the differentials? Do I need to change all my fluids in my truck after every ride?

[ossagp]

Jay
Cant disagree with your micron rating theory on face value. I cant agree with your faith in them either. Micron ratings in the simple form are more smoke than I believe you to make the beta ratio out to be. A company can stop one particle one time of a certain size and claim that "micron rating". Never mind that the filter as built may pass the same size particle 90 percent of the time. As in an absolute micron rating, a beta ratio has to be derived from some solid testing. The thing that makes it less manipulative is that the company making the claim has it's word put on an easier to judge statement.



Now on coolant in the oil. Get yours tested and get back to me.
You would have to believe that your seal on the water pump is 100% efficient. If you have one of those please send it to me. If you have a bike with any time on it at all, I am betting that a good oil analysis will show some passage of coolant.

The size and length of the particle has to be considered when coming up with a true micron rating. ( a 10 micron width with a 30 micron length will penetrate what a 10 x 10 micron particle wont).
You make an interesting discussion. My comments on salvaging oil come from experience in the field. I hope yours have as good a foundation. Sorry to hear about all the time wasted with the snakeoil salesmen.