Just installed the ICAT

[mtk]

An ICAT is about as useful as one of those propellers in the intake tract of your car or truck, which is to say completely useless and counterproductive.

It doesn't burn more fuel. Once the fire is lit, anything else is mental masturbation. Since the stock ignition lights the fire just fine, what purpose does this gizmo serve? The short answer is, "none."

The effect of adding capacitance on an electrical circuit is well known. These guys haven't stumbled upon anything new, they've simply found a way to extract money from uneducated consumers.

If you want to know what it does, it is a pretty simple calculation for an electrical engineering student. Most any basic EE text will have all the information you need to evaluate what it does to the performance of the ignition system. No, I won't do the math for you. About all it is doing is retarding your ignition timing slightly, at best.

[Crazy]

Sorry MTK I didnt get back faster was at work. VSWR is Voltage Standing Wave Ratio. If impedences are mismatched a wave is reflected by the load causing a ripple effect. If the load is match no wave is reflected back. If its not the reflected wave will difference itself from the initial wave in. This mainly applys to very high frequencies, which I'm not sure if this would be considered here.

Like you I dont think there is any way this would increase power in this type of application. ICats website shows that there is a delay of the spark but it's very hard to determine how many degrees by an oscope output it would affect your spark advance on the motor.

If spark is retarded closer to 0* BTDC then torque can increase, but you loose your top end power and increase your EGT's.

[ossagp1]

Cra,
If by increased torque you mean lowspeed torque, I disagree with you. Retarding the spark has been used to help at higher rpms. It is why spark advance mechanisms have been used since the model T. In some ways it defies logic. You need it retarded for starting (preventing kickback) then a fast advance if you want acceleration (the torque you speak of is necessary for that). Then you need it to back out some of the advance at high rpms.

There is more at work here than simply the ignition system itself when you play "timing for ponies".

[Coopsvintageyz]

Yes when you retard the ignition off at high rpm, the motor can run with less force against it, there for it free revs easier, and will rev higher, with out pre-ignition.

I think ICAT is mainly saying it helps clean up the C.O's and H.C's, and the way I take it under Heavy load & full throttle it will increase torque by burning more of the fuel. (but only if there is enough air to mix with the fuel)

I have also read more positive about the ICAT that negative, I thing I am the only one that really didn't notice a difference?

But it does seem like any one who does nay say the product, really hasn't ran one?

[mtk]

Originally Posted by Coopsvintageyz

I think ICAT is mainly saying it helps clean up the C.O's and H.C's, and the way I take it under Heavy load & full throttle it will increase torque by burning more of the fuel. (but only if there is enough air to mix with the fuel)

No, it will do nothing of the sort.

Once the fire is burning, all the spark in the world doesn't do a thing. NOTHING. ZERO. NADA. The flame front propogates across the combustion chamber. Feeding in more spark isn't going to do anything, particularly at the same spot in the combustion chamber (twin plug systems on some engines start two fires, in different locations, to speed burning across a large combustion chamber). More importantly, this thing has no mechanism to add spark. All it can do is delay the timing a bit, while the capacitor charges, and consume energy. It can't add energy to the system because it has no mechanism to do so. The ONLY energy input to the ignition system comes from the generator coils on the end of the crank. From that point, it's all downhill as you can only lose energy from that point forward.

Originally Posted by Coopsvintageyz

I have also read more positive about the ICAT that negative, I thing I am the only one that really didn't notice a difference?

You didn't notice a difference because it is a fraud. Positive results are mostly attributable to people wanting to see a positive result from the $40 gizmo they just wasted their money on. None of these positive results are ever backed up with anything like dyno testing or double-blind testing. If they say they got no gain they then have to admit they just got taken for $40. No one likes to get taken.

At best, this thing mucks with the ignition timing at low speeds, resulting in a small positive increase at low rpms, and any losses at high rpms are masked by the overabundance of power the average dirt bike has at high engine rpms.

Originally Posted by Coopsvintageyz

But it does seem like any one who does nay say the product, really hasn't ran one?

I also haven't run a propeller in my intake but I know those are a fraud too. I don't need to try one to know that the laws of physics say it won't work. The same thing applies here.

[mtk]

Originally Posted by Crazy

Sorry MTK I didnt get back faster was at work. VSWR is Voltage Standing Wave Ratio. If impedences are mismatched a wave is reflected by the load causing a ripple effect. If the load is match no wave is reflected back. If its not the reflected wave will difference itself from the initial wave in. This mainly applys to very high frequencies, which I'm not sure if this would be considered here.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Woody_YZF]

I have one on my YZ250F and I met a guy in Mesquite who had one on his KX250F and the person I bought the YZ250F is the one who purchased it. He said he didn't necessarily notice a gain, but he noticed that it pulled harder all the way through the RPM range. When I asked the guy with the KX250F, he described the "gain" almost exactly the same way the person I bought my bike from. I should pull it off one day and see if I notice any difference. Of course these are on 4 strokes. Interesting conversation anyway.

[crazyrydermx]

Originally Posted by mtk

I also haven't run a propeller in my intake but I know those are a fraud too. I don't need to try one to know that the laws of physics say it won't work. The same thing applies here.

Are you talking about the Tornado Fuel Saver when you talk about the propeller? Just want to make sure
Yes, the reason most people say they noticed gains is because they want to. They are either making themselves feel better about it, want others to go and make the mistake that they have, or actually believe that there is a difference. It's their brain that does it to them. I used to do it too...

[Coopsvintageyz]

Originally Posted by mtk

[B]I also haven't run a propeller in my intake but I know those are a fraud too. I don't need to try one to know that the laws of physics say it won't work. The same thing applies here.

I supose if the laws of physics have no flaws then yes you are right,

But it did change something in my bike, the exhaust note was different?
And the mid range was more affected?
Seems like there are a lot of happy brain washed ICAT owners out there?

[mtk]

Originally Posted by crazyrydermx

Are you talking about the Tornado Fuel Saver when you talk about the propeller? Just want to make sure
Yes, the reason most people say they noticed gains is because they want to. They are either making themselves feel better about it, want others to go and make the mistake that they have, or actually believe that there is a difference. It's their brain that does it to them. I used to do it too...

Yep, the good ol' Tornado. Snake oil at its finest.

Originally Posted by Coopsvintageyz

I supose if the laws of physics have no flaws then yes you are right,

But it did change something in my bike, the exhaust note was different?
And the mid range was more affected?
Seems like there are a lot of happy brain washed ICAT owners out there?

Last I checked, the subject matter at hand has been well known for a generation or more. So, no, there are no flaws in the Laws of Physics. There aren't even any minor debated about their accuracy. This is all quite well known and backed up by plenty of empirical research. These are simple electric circuits that any sophomore EE student does problems about all the time. We can predict, with 100% accuracy, what effect an additional capacitor will have in the high-voltage side of an ignition system. Working miracles isn't one of them.

As for happy owners, that is less than meaningless. Slick 50 has plenty of happy owners. The Tornado Fuel Saver has plenty of happy owners. Those magnetic bracelets have plenty of happy owners. None of that means that any of the above are anything more than the complete fakes that they are. Why those owners are happy is a question best address by a study of human psychology, not engineering.

[crazyrydermx]

Originally Posted by mtk

Yep, the good ol' Tornado. Snake oil at its finest.

Yeah, that thing sucks. I have seen things about it where it increased burned fuel. Something so simple, that looks like a rim built for a kids toy car (and like it's built by the kid himself), wouldn't be stock? Stupid gimmicks
I'd really like to see a dyno done with this ICAT. I can't find one, but if I do, I will definitely post it

[crazyrydermx]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

The ICAT is supposed to increase bottom end power, but here it decreases it. The mid and top barely look any different...you wouldn't feel it at all.

[ossagp1]

The first ICAT's I saw were going for 200 dollars. Most spending that kind of money dont want to admit to themselves it really didnt work. I asked a friend who wanted to be able to sell them what he thought. (he has a dyno and couldnt find anything on it.) but he did say that the cr125 that he tried it on seemed (get the "seemed" printed in hard type) to run better down low. He tried it on KX's and YZ's and YZF's as well. Couldnt tell anything positive or negative on any of them. I said "Rick, maybe you should pull out those Nology wires and try them together." He offered me a really good deal on the one he had tested. He was willing to throw in some of the Nology wires too!
Coop,, the reason you are not feeling anything significant is that you are more objective than lots of their owners.
I am going to go against the grain a little bit here on spark length. The better jetted you are and the better design you have to begin with, negates the need (if any) for longer spark. It does serve a purpose, more so on the sloppy running bikes. If the part of the mix that is in contact with the electrode is either too lean or two rich it may not ignite properly at it's appointed time. A longer duration can cure some of that. Early CDI's exposed this. Some forms of racing stuck to magnetos for a long time just because of it. The dragracers were willing to drop peak voltage for a longer spark especially in the alcohol based fuels. Ditto the speedway racers.
In my case, if I spend 200 dollars (or 40) on anything to improve performance, I had better feel it, and know right where it is. With so much misinformation and so little in depth knowledge it makes putting these products out pretty easy. In the case of industrial engines, if indeed the timing is retarded then heat is moved from the combustion chamber to the exhuast side. That will make for lower emissions. Retarding the timing manually would serve the same purpose though. Read what you want and use your imagination for the HP gains.
If you take a look at some of the misconceptions here, and go read a recent thread on fuel, you will see why it is easy to market something that really does little. Whether in a bottle or in a box, we are all looking for that simple to install, fairly easy to afford item that will put us past our friends on the next ride. For more than 30 years I have been able to do the latter, but with friends who ride some things that are pretty capable, I have never found the HP needed to run with them in a package that slips onto any part of my wiring, or into my carburetor, or onto the end of my exhaust.
Maybe when ours are more computerized and injected it will be so.

[Coopsvintageyz]

Originally Posted by crazyrydermx

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
The ICAT is supposed to increase bottom end power, but here it decreases it. The mid and top barely look any different...you wouldn't feel it at all.

It is very interesting that the ICAT did show a hp gain on top end, when this device should do nothing at all?
It is also interesting that it lost low end?
Dyno's seem to be pretty good proof?

[Woody_393]

I haven't read the rest of this thread, but it seems like the iCat helps more for those that have jetting that's not quite dialed. The closer you are to dialed the less help it would probably have.

[Vintage Dave393]

I think the ICat has been beaten to death. Poor kitty.

Can't we talk about something less controversial, like oil or politics.

Loud pipes save lives, thousands of new, dead Harley owners can't be wrong.:

[Woody_393]

Originally Posted by Vintage Dave393

I think the ICat has been beaten to death. Poor kitty.

Can't we talk about something less controversial, like oil or politics.

Loud pipes save lives, thousands of new, dead Harley owners can't be wrong.:

LMBO

[FFRacing11x]

Originally Posted by Woody_CRF

LMBO

Now thats a BIG laugh!!

[Keetoman393]

Originally Posted by FFRacing11x

Now thats a BIG laugh!!

I just laughed so hard I had a cough attack!

[char393]

Originally Posted by FFRacing11x

Now thats a BIG laugh!!

DOH!!!!

Wow Tdub....that was just....AWESOME!

I can appreciate a sense of humor like that.