stalling in corners

The Baron · #21 09-26-2007, 11:18 AM

The standing all the way to the apex is what a lot of people say but if you watch almost any pro ride they are ont he gas long before the apex of the turn. They brake and as they enter the turn they sit and get on the throttle. Standing all the way to the apex works in tight rutted corners but I think that's about the only place. You should be standing all the way into the corner, don't sit down as you are braking, but I don't see the point of standing all the way to the apex. You should be on the gas by that point. I just don't see the smoothness in standing into the apex and then suddenly slamming onto the seat as you grab throttle.

Working the clutch to take advantage of the engine braking works great to aid in slowing you down. It's just another technique to help you slow down in a more controlled fashion. Two strokes don't engine brake like thumpers, so there's not much point to it, but it can help slow you down way faster than braking alone.

Practice hauling to a turn, then as you are ready to brake go from on the throttle to clutch in, down shift to second as you start to brake then while you are on the binders slowly let the clutch out and see how much the bike slows down. Of course you'll have to pull it in and modulate the lever so the bike doesn't stall but it's just another piece to the puzzle.

mxmama393 · #22 09-26-2007, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Baron

Practice hauling to a turn, then as you are ready to brake go from on the throttle to clutch in, down shift to second as you start to brake then while you are on the binders slowly let the clutch out and see how much the bike slows down. Of course you'll have to pull it in and modulate the lever so the bike doesn't stall but it's just another piece to the puzzle.

Man... I don't ever pull the clutch in when I down shift....

Crap Im gonna have to change more than one thing....

First I want to work on doing all the breaking on the straight and throttle through the the entire turn.

I cant wait to see how that feels... It seems so much easier than what I have been trying to do!!!

The Baron · #23 09-26-2007, 11:45 AM

Clarification, the only reason that I pull the clutch when I downshift coming into a corner is because you should to keep the bike from stalling when you get on the brakes. I don't want this to become a clutch when you shift thread. That's not what I'm talking about. I am speaking of using the engine braking to aid in slowing you down, via the clutch and a lower gear.

dhighlan · #24 09-26-2007, 11:48 AM

Not always at the apex, that is why Gary Semic uses the terms approach Dex and exit Dex. Approach Dex is the point at which you shut off the gas and go straight to breaking, the exit Dex is where you go from braking to accelerating. Not necessarily at the apex hence the difference in terminology to omit confusion. I sit when I start to lean the bike as Baron described, given me the chance to sit on the outer portion of the seat, but mainly this occurs just prior to the exit Dex, meaning end of braking, butt up front but upper body lean rearward until the speed is scrubbed. I can't say all braking is done before I am seated and sometimes I will say on the rear while seated. Did a lot of drills from pivot rear braking from the arch of my foot to seated position with the leg lifted knee against the shroud for the total control per Semic's All About Corners video. Little different from Baron's absolute no braking while turning since he starts the turns before sitting so no reason for the transition in foot position on the rear brake. Just remember the approach or exit Dex can be at varies parts of the turn depending on the line taken in, through, and out of the corner.
You want the clutch out to give you the engine brake but if coming down real fast it may need to be slipped to prevent stalling.

mxmama393 · #25 09-26-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Baron

Clarification, the only reason that I pull the clutch when I downshift coming into a corner is because you should to keep the bike from stalling when you get on the brakes.

I got it... so if your going to be on the breaks and down shift at the same time, you just use the clutch to keep the bike running.

I cant wait to practice this afternoon. No more fighting the urge to pull the clutch in

dhighlan · #26 09-26-2007, 12:05 PM

MXdN pics

On post #12 the first pic of Ferry is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Look and his right index finger, foot position, knee position, his neutral upper body, and placement on the seat. It's what I attempt to do.

The Baron · #27 09-26-2007, 12:09 PM

Here's what I find works best, especially on a four stroke.

Coming to a corner

1. Pull in the clutch and get on the brakes
2. Downshift
3. Release the clutch slowly to allow engine braking to aid in stopping
4. As you enter the turn pull int he clutch, sit down and let off the brakes.
5. When you are in your line start rolling on the throttle while you let the clutch out.

Just slamming the bike down a gear or two without using the clutch is sloppy and can cause the bike to suddenly jerk or kick out of it's line. Using the clutch to regulate engine braking will keep things smooth and under control.

Smoothness first, speed later. Some people like to turn and burn, square turns up and slam on the throttle but it is my opinion that the guys who really corner fast do it smoothly. Watch Villopoto smoothly rail the outside of a turn. Sure he takes the long way around, but he does it so smoothly that he is able to carry a lot more speed and fly past the guys on the inside. This is not possible for every turn but it works for a lot of them. The first time you get the bike laid over and throttle all the way through a turn on the outside you'll be amazed. The exit speed you have and the feeling of doing it will have you hooked.

Another FYI - slightly dragging the front brake through the turn can aid in keeping the front tire planted and grabbing traction. Just be careful not to grab too much or you'll lose the front end and go down.

mxmama393 · #28 09-27-2007, 08:31 AM

Hey, I practiced yesterday doing all the breaking on the straight, and I was so much more comfortable! Honestly as far as the break & throttle timing are concerned, it felt very familiar.
Much like if I were driving a car fast into a curve, I would have all the breaking done before I entered the turn and accelerate through out the turn. (at least thats how I do it)

I noticed the dirt on the track was ripped up all the way through the turns, and on the straights. Before there were always sections with the dirt still in tack. So I guess I am closing that "gap" between braking and accelerating better now!

As far as stalling goes, it still happened a couple times. Maybe its the bike... It doesn't start up first kick like it used to either. Takes 4-5 kicks now. Just feels a little off all around, I'm not sure.

Thanks so much for the help. I am much more consistent this way.

The Baron · #29 09-27-2007, 10:30 AM

If the weather has cooled down you may need to adjust the fuel screw to get it idling and starting well again.

Cooler weather normally requires richer jetting so try turning the fuel screw out half a turn and see if it helps.

One other thing on idle speed. Too many people set their idle too low on their four strokes. It should be around 1800-2000 rpms which is faster than most people think. Some hour meters have a tachometer built into them which makes it really easy. If you don't have one, set it to where it sounds a little too fast and that should be close.

It sounds like you are getting what I was talking about as far as the cornering bit goes. I tend to ride the outsides unless it is an obvious disadvantage or I know someone is going to try to stand me up in the turn. Smoothness is key. The smoother you are the less work it is to ride the bike and the faster you can go.

The Baron · #30 09-27-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhighlan

Not always at the apex, that is why Gary Semic uses the terms approach Dex and exit Dex. Approach Dex is the point at which you shut off the gas and go straight to breaking, the exit Dex is where you go from braking to accelerating. Not necessarily at the apex hence the difference in terminology to omit confusion. I sit when I start to lean the bike as Baron described, given me the chance to sit on the outer portion of the seat, but mainly this occurs just prior to the exit Dex, meaning end of braking, butt up front but upper body lean rearward until the speed is scrubbed. I can't say all braking is done before I am seated and sometimes I will say on the rear while seated. Did a lot of drills from pivot rear braking from the arch of my foot to seated position with the leg lifted knee against the shroud for the total control per Semic's All About Corners video. Little different from Baron's absolute no braking while turning since he starts the turns before sitting so no reason for the transition in foot position on the rear brake. Just remember the approach or exit Dex can be at varies parts of the turn depending on the line taken in, through, and out of the corner.
You want the clutch out to give you the engine brake but if coming down real fast it may need to be slipped to prevent stalling.

I'm not totally off the brakes when the initial turn in occurs but I am certainly not on them hard. I do drag the front brake through turns a lot as I tend to sit too far back despite always trying not to. So dragging the front brake helps keep the front planted, overcoming my less than stellar body positioning.

triplendo · #31 09-27-2007, 12:36 PM

Mamma, you might try setting your idle up a hair until you get the hang of it. There are lots of opinions on using the clutch when down shifting. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. If you're having problems with stalling then you probably should pull the clutch.

The Baron · #32 09-27-2007, 12:43 PM

I just want to reiterate.

I clutch when downshifting only to keep from getting a sudden jolt from the downshift which could cause the bike to become unsettled. By pulling in the clutch before a downshift the bike stays more settled and it allows me to control engine braking as opposed to simply downshifting with the clutch out and having a sudden rush of engine braking.

I have no problem upshifting or downshifting without the use of the clutch in terms of a reliability factor.

Adhd Matt · #33 12-12-2007, 08:37 PM

pulling in the clutch would be a good idea

edit: i often downshift with the clutch as baron said and i drag the front brake through the turn and feather the clutch slightly to get the most out most of my machine

i try to stay in 3rd so i often need to clutch it a bit but i do it for good measure in 2nd usually to, gets a bit more POPP! lol but when accelerating out of the turn i often up-shift withoutthe clutch as i can do it much faster n get up to speed for the jums quicker that way.

dhighlan · #34 12-12-2007, 09:48 PM

Matt
You are running a 2 stoke, right?

Adhd Matt · #35 12-13-2007, 05:37 PM

nope a yz250f but sometimes it feels like my old 2t

lol but i often feather the clutch to make sure the engine braking doesnt slow me down too much and that the bike doesnt stall or bog when going through the turn. im still not a whiz at turning but it feel like it helps a lot specially when riding in the sand that i practice in, not as impt on the hard pack cuz ur tire can slide a lotmore!