Friction modifiers and all the other stuff about oil

[bates393]

Lets get some feedback and maybe move this to the kbase if it turns out good.

Here is the question? What kind of oil can I run in my bike? I have a crf so my cases are split. In the engine I run mobil 1 10w40. In the tranny I run the Honda HP oil that is really $$$$.

I want to switch to synthetic oil in the motor. I set up a poll to see what people are using. The poll in under 4stroke>honda .

Secondly is the tranny oil. Currently the Honda oil is doing a fine job. A little pricey though ($7 a quart) I want to know if the mobil 1 15w50 super syn can run in it ok? I heard that mobil 1 has added friction reducers to it new synthetic products.
Now are friction reducers and modifiers the same thing? Having the web clutch I don't want to have the friction modifiers in there as I don't want my clutch to slip.

So lets have the oil knowledge runneth over

Jeff

[Ranger_450F]

Bates , KTM25rm and I had this discussion today. You need to look at the photo below to see if ther oil is right for your bike. Notice the small circle on the 2 bottles of oil The grey one being the Mobil1 15w50 and the yellow being Penzoil for the car. If the label states that the oil is energy conserving then you don't want it. The word is it will make your clutch slip because it will penetrate the plates and allow them to slip and not be tacky.

[quadracer]

Ranger is right on the money. Mobil 1 (either 15w50 or 10w30) both work well with 4-stroke motors and will not cause clutch problems. It doesn't have the additives that cause the problems. The only time you don't want to run it is during a break-in.

I've been running 15w50 for over a year of very hard riding and have had really good luck (as have several people I know). I just had my motor upgraded, and my engine builder told me to run the Mobil 1 also. This guy races nationals in Quad TT and builds national motors for several Quad MX racers, so I trust his judgement.

[Rockey]

Mobil 1 synthetic. Best stuff ever, Ive even used the friction modified one in the 5w-30 weight, and my clutch never slipped. Its great stuff.

[Woody_393]

I'm not a mobile 1 guy yet, but I will be. I bought too much of the other stuff, and haven't ran through it all yet.

For the CRF (since the engine and tranny oil's are separate) you can run pretty much whatever oil you want in there (engine side). In fact I would think that you would want "Friction Modifiers" on on the engine side. The slicker the better after break in.

I honestly don't know what other Full Syn options are out there for the engine, but find a good one and go with that. Especially since the engine only takes about 2/3 a quart. Mobile1 & AMSOil full syn have my vote for sure.

[bates393]

Excellent pictures and description ranger. Thanks for the other feedback. As soon as I go through 5 more quarts of conventional I will be swithching over to the mobil 1.

Thanks again. Any other comments are definately welcome. The more the merrier.

Jeff

[KTM250rm393]

Good job Ranger, thanks.

[Madman393]

Cast your vote and rate this thread to send it to the KB for all time!

[bates393]

got my vote

[Desert Rat]

Your clutch shouldn't slip even with the friction modifiers unless it is getting near the end of its life. I think that is a bit of a motorcysle dealer/manufacturer myth. They like selling you that $7/qt stuff. They don't make any of their oils, somebody bottles it for them. One more layer of profit you have to pay for at the dealer. I use Mobile 1 15w-50 in all my toys (2 stroke-4 stoke-sandrails). Been using it since it first came out years ago with no problem. I started using it because I had some nephews that were racing pro-class motocross and most of the pro riders were using it. I buy it in 5 gallon jugs at Wal-Mart to get the best price, but price is not the reason I use it.

[MWV46]

Ok, I get it...Mobl 1, Rotella T or Amsoil AFTER BREAK IN!....BUT...What should I use in my 05 CRF450 during break in?

[crfjedi393]

MV, My dealer recommended the Honda GN4 10W40 for break-in. He told me the Mobile 1 was excellent oil for after break-in and he doesn't even sell it.

[mtk]

Originally Posted by Desert Rat

Your clutch shouldn't slip even with the friction modifiers unless it is getting near the end of its life.

I beg to differ.

A fellow roadracer burned up his clutch at the track and didn't have a spare. I gave him a brand-new Barnett clutch kit to get him back in the game. The local store was out of Mobil 1 so his dad got Castrol Syntec instead, which is a friction-modified oil. The clutch pack lasted all of about five laps and then started slipping like crazy. Junk one brand-new clutch. Best of all, there's no saving it. Once the stuff is on the friction materials, it's virtually impossible to remove.

Friction modified oils and wet clutches do not mix.

[MWV46]

Thanks Jedi!

[Jaybird]

The friction modifier scare is, for the most part, unwarranted.

Very few bikes will give you problems when using an oil with a friction modifier added. However, some bikes will act up when you use a friction modified oil.
Some clutches will slip by simply changing to another brand of non-energy concerving oil.

Just about any motor oil on the market will have friction modifiers in the package. Wait...EVERY motor oil on the market has friction modifiers in them.

There are a multitude of friction modifiers and viscosity index modifiers used in conventional motor oils. And just because an oil doesn't claim to be "energy conserving" doe not mean it is free of friction modifiers. It's not.
There are specific friction modifying components that qualify an oil as "energy conserving". Many oils have these modifiers in them, but at lesser rates or different mixtures that mean they cannot claim to be energy conserving.

The thing is that some clutches will act differently with different oils.
Yes, the moto shops will scare you from buying a $2.50 qt of oil in hopes of you purchasing a moto specific oil that is way overpriced.

Yes, some clutches will not tolerate an energy conserving oil, but then some won't tolerate a different brand of non-energy conserving oil.
It's a bike specific thing, and way too many variables come into play to make a blanket statement about what oils you can and cannot run. And simply using an oil that makes your clutch slip does not mean it is ruined. Some solid lubricants, such as moly, will adhere themsleves to the metals surfaces and act as little slip plates, and may actually cause a slip (it takes massive amounts of moly to cause a clutch problem)...but change out the oil to another with less moly and the bike will more than likely clear up fine before another oil change is needed. In MOST cases, you won't see the slip immediately after changing the oil. If you do chose an oil that makes your clutch slip, simply change it out. If it still slips, immediately change it again. Very rarely will you have ANY problem after that.
You are going to see more problems with a clutch that is all glazed over from using an oil that may not protect properly at the high temps the clutch sees.
Another plus for synthetic.

Here's the bottom line...
Synthetic oils provide much better shear strength and protection at higher temps, and for longer periods, than convention dino oil will.
This relates to longer parts life.
Also, friction modifiers such as molybdenum are present in just about any motor oil, but oils with a very high moly content may perhaps cause your clutch to slip...but they may not. You have to try an oil out to know. Blanket statements do NOT hold true.
But a motor oil that is lacking friction enhancers will provide less protection for your parts. This relates in shorter parts life.
So, what we want is a synthetic fluid that has the right combination of friction modifiers that allow adequate protection of our parts, while not causing something like clutch slip.
You CAN find a conventional motor oil that fits this bill without using ANY moto specific oil. I can just about guarantee you that the moto specific oil does not cost the mfg. more to produce, he simply wants you to think you need it so you will purchase it and recommend it to others. Marketing.
In fact, using an oil void of friction modifiers will cause all of your metal parts to wear out faster. Spending 4 times the money for oil that will accelerate wear? Not me.

Often times you will hear anectodal stories of clutches burning out and such, but there is almost ALWAYS other factors involved, and the situation cannot be completely blamed on the simple choice of oil.

One more point...the advise to NOT use a synthetic oil during break in is rediculous. I figure some genius that has sat around and thought about things too long thunk that one up. It's simply not true that using a synthetic oil at breakin is a mistake.

[ossagp]

i have yet to have a problem in any machine using mobil 1 automotive or diesel (delvac1) products. anything from an 82 honda sabre to my xr's and others.

i dont use the synthetics as a rule to start up an engine,,,whether it be motorcycle or automotive or large diesel, simply because i drain in 20 minutes or so due to the assembly lubes etc.

[mtk]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

There are a multitude of friction modifiers and viscosity index modifiers used in conventional motor oils. And just because an oil doesn't claim to be "energy conserving" doe not mean it is free of friction modifiers. It's not.
There are specific friction modifying components that qualify an oil as "energy conserving". Many oils have these modifiers in them, but at lesser rates or different mixtures that mean they cannot claim to be energy conserving.

This is incorrect.

The one, and only, thing that qualifies an oil as "Energy Conserving" is being of the appropriate viscosity grade and also passing the Sequece VIB (Six B) test. The VIB is an ASTM test designed to measure fuel economy improvement due to the engine oil used.

The specific chemical formuations of oil is never an issue, except for phoshorus content, which is another issue entirely (it is an anti-wear additive).

[Jaybird]

And you think that the additive package in the oil has nothing to do with the oil passing the ASTM procedures?

I have to disagree with you...
the additive package of oil is always an issue.

Why would phophorus content be the only concern for add packs?

[ossagp]

in support of what Michael is saying,,0-20 wt.

[mtk]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

And you think that the additive package in the oil has nothing to do with the oil passing the ASTM procedures?

I have to disagree with you...
the additive package of oil is always an issue.

Why would phophorus content be the only concern for add packs?

Phosphorus is the one, and ONLY, element that is specifically listed in the performance specifications. Phosphorus content is limited because it is known to poison emissions catalysts over time when the oil is burned.

Your mention of friction modifier level mattering in achieving the Energy Conserving rating is false as there is no mention, at all, of friction modifiers in the specifications. If you can pass the Sequence VIB test without friction modifiers, you get to use the "Energy Conserving II" label, period.

I worked in the oil testing industry for 13 years, ending last April 1st, so I'm 100% positive that I'm right on this one.