which is the best chain for power to back wheel?

[Doom Crew]

I've used an O-ring and an X-ring, and they are both excellent chains .

[ktmrider21]

for me the x-ring lasted alot longer. i really like the oring and x-ring chains. i definately get my money's worth out of them. i do alot of mud and sand so my chains get alot of abuse. standard just can't hold up

[Zero]

Okay. Time to bring this thread back from the dead.

I have been a standard chain user on my 2 strokes and 4 stroke. I recently (3 months ago) switched to an x-ring chaing because of threads just like this one, all claiming longer duratbility, you can't tell the difference, blah blah blah.

I am here to tell you, I can not only tell a difference, its a huge difference, especially on deep loamy tracks. Now I ride exclusively on motocross tracks.

X-ring chain is a power robbing SOB in these conditions. At least thats when I notice it the most.

Nocona MX and McAfee MX are my 2 test environments. Both sandy and can be deep loamy dirt. I rode my x-ring mounted CRF450 back to back with another CRF450 that had a standard chain at both tracks 2 months apart as a test.

Exit Corner speed there is a very noticeable difference and long straights there is a noticeable difference. My lap time was even a full second slower on the x-ring chain. Both bikes are virtually identical.

Now with that said, some people won't be able to tell a difference. I am not a pro rider by any stretch of the imagination, but I ain't slow either.

I will say the chain seems to last longer, adjustment intervals are much longer, maybe 4 or 5 times as long. I switched to the x-ring because the 450 was so hard on the standard chain, I wanted something a little more sturdy.

For you trail riders, you probably won't be able to tell a difference. But if you are serious about MX, or want all you can get from your machine, the x-ring might not be for you. If you ride on hard pack tracks, you probably won't be able to notice a difference either.


For you doubters, the chain was plenty warmed up. It was 95 degrees both days and I generally ride hard.

Just my two scents. Carry on.

[FoxRocket]

I love my Renthal O'ring chain, they're a little pricey in my honest opinion, but it has been a GREAT chain!

[530Racer]

for puttin power to the back wheel the best chain would be standard because it isnt as heavy as the x-ring or o-ring. But it wont last as long as the x-ring or o-ring chains

[bikepilot]

A standard chain will weigh less and have less rolling resistance, but an O-ring will last longer. An X-ring will last as long or longer than an O ring, but has much less drag in my exp. Switching from on O ring to an X ring got an extra 2mpg (consistently) on my street bike

[Rider]

go the RK520 o-ring... just cause there cool. Strong and reliable. when your standard chain snaps after dumping it in the middle of a desert, how much power will you have going to the back wheel then, huh?

[YzRacer#53]

Standard chains are junk my bike just stretches them to easy

[530Racer]

chains without o-ring because they are lighter but if you want it to last a while you should get the o-ring anyway

[Rider]

Originally Posted by YzRacer#53

Standard chains are junk my bike just stretches them to easy

hell yea, i dumped the clutch and there was a jerk, a clink, a snap and a hardcore over-rev

[Florida 393]

I find it strange that a well maintained R-1 Renthal can do well for me with no problems and some claim to snap them easily. I ride a YZ 426F so it is getting plenty of power applied to it reguarly. The factories use standard chains for their bikes so I feel thet is you keep it properly aligned and tensiones, use a good lube the chain should do you well.

How tight was the chain when you did this? Sounds like it was way too tight for your suspension travel. With the tensile strength of modern chains I find it hard to believe it broke if it was properly adjusted and cared for.

Do a search here and read the posts by Jaybird, he knows his stuff adn he gave a pretty good explanation on chains.

Bill

[kx_rider53]

I run the standard chain and i think its fine as long as you take care of it.

[Jaybird]

Bill,
I have spent alot of time studying power transmission issues. It's part of what I do for a living.

So many myths and stories out there....
The chain issue is one that seems to get a fairly consistant review by the majority of folks. So consistant that one would have to come to certain conclusions after reading tons and tons of replies, and most saying basically the same things...
"Ring chains last far longer than standard roller chains"
"My brute force thumper simply eats my sprockets alive"
"I never have to lube my ring chain, and I never have to adjust it"
"All OEM chains and sprockets are junk that will not last long"
"Ring chains do not need lubrication"
"X-ring chains last longer than O-ring chains, and both far outlast ANY standard chain...and are much stronger"
"All aluminum alloy sprockets are junk and the answer is to purchase a super hard rear sprocket for about 3 times what it is worth, and an X-ring chain that costs even more"

Go through the posts about this issue here...or at ANY other moto board existing, and you will see countless replies just like the ones above.
And most often you will see me chime in that most all of the above statements are completely wrong.

First we need to realize that a ring chain and a standard chain are the very same animals.

Take for instance RK chains...
An RK #520 MXZ is a standard roller chain, it has a tensile strength of 8800 lbs. , is recommended for 500cc bikes and less, and retails for ~$64.00

The RK #520 GXW is an X-ring chain with a tensile strength of 8800 lbs, and is recommended for 1000cc bikes and less. Retails for ~$110

Folks...these are the VERY SAME CHAINS! Only difference is that there are sealing rings on the GXW chain to keep pre-injected lubricant in. The sideplates are exactly the same, as evident from the tensile rating.
There is absolutely NO reason to recommend that the MXZ be used only on 500cc bikes, and the GXW be used on 1000cc bikes...the tensile strength of the sideplate rating is what determines if it is strong enough to handle the force of a certain CC engine. (tensile rating is another marketing ploy as well...as even a 500cc two stroke monster can only put out less than 1800lbs of pull on it's best day...a 3000lb rated chain will handle that, over and above that is overkill)

Thing is, the mfg knows that if they recommend the high dollar chain for the bigger bikes, all the bigger bike guys are going to spring for the higher priced item. They can't use the MXZ on a 600 onda street bike, can they? Heck the mfg stated it can't be used on bikes of that size...right?
Do you see where I'm getting at here? So not to parse words..chain mfg's are full of it, and hope you don't know better.

Just like their phoney wear ratings they always post with their chains...crap, every bit of it.
When they show a ring chain far outlasting a standard chain, using a graph to show test results, they aren't telling you that they conducted the test with NO added lubrication. And in that condition it's obvious that a standard roller chain will go south fast with no lube. BUT..it makes for a great graphic, and helps to sell the high dollar ring chains that provide the chain mfg with higher profit margins. (it costs very little more to make a ring chain compared to a standard chain)
Again, more mfg marketing BS!

I could go on and on about this...but the bottom line boils down to these facts:

It is the CHAIN that wears your sprocket teeth down. The brute force of your bike has nothing to do with it. If your chain stays within safe running specifications, and the tension and alignment are correct, then the sprockets will NOT deform..be they steel or aluminum.
But there will always be the guy who claims his sprockets were eaten up very fast by his brute force thumper...
All I can tell him is that he had something wrong. And folks hate the hear that...especially when they feel they have it all figured out. But I can only respond by saying that some do not see the same problem as the do with their equipment, so something must be up, yes?

Folks also tend to miss these issues:
They are improperly tensioning their chain...either by misunderstanding the method explained in the manual, or they use a method described by pals...pals that also have troubles with their equipment.
When a chain is tensioned properly, it only takes less than a 1/4 turn of the adjusters to have the chain too taught. Only the slightest bit too taught and it can spell disater to your chain, sprockets, and bearings.
Folks who have new bikes and the sprockets eat away very fast can more than likely blame the turd that put his bike together at the dealer. They have few clues on what is proper, let alone proper chain tensioning. More often than not, a bike off the showroom floor, be it new or used, should be checked out before riding. I have seen a showroom floor full of chains that were put on way too tight...but try telling that to the guy at the counter...he will probably laugh at you...he and his henchmen are proffesionals, right?

Folks also tend to not lubricate properly. Sure they buy the best chain wax goo they can find, but if you follow them around you will see that they actually aren't lubing their chain. Sure they may slob some on after they clean the bike, but they will ride for hours and hours and never re-lube.
Then they claim that their chains and sprockets are junk.

Also, many do subsribe to good lube practice, and they put lube on all the time, but the product they chose to use (many times a waxy goo) doesn't get to where it needs to go int he first place. All they have done is slob on some gooey crap that sets up before the lube gets to the friction points, and them becomes a big time dirt and grit collector and forms a grinding paste to help the demise of your stuff.
Penetrating type dry-films are the only type of lubriants that will do the job for our sport. Just about any other lube is complete crap.

Ring chains are fine to run...IN THE SLOP! They were desinged for use in adverse conditions, and should be used as such. And of course they rob power...and sure, there willbe the guys who swear they don't and it isn't noticible anyway...but they are again usually listening to a sales rep explain how they need to heat the chain up first...yeah right. Friction is friction folks.

Learn how to properly adjust your equipment.
Use a standard chain in most all instances, and have a ring chain ready to mount up when you ride in the mud and slop.
Find a chain lube that is a thin bodied, penetrating, dry-film type and USE IT.
And clean your chain after every ride. (which you will find that when you use a dry-film, cleaning is a breeze)
These things will put more power to your wheel and keep it there.

Just wanted to add this...
I have three guys around the country that buy chains and sprockets from me every year. They always go with a cheap $30 standard chain and aluminum rear. I know for a fact that at least one of these guys rides a YZ250 for 2-3 practice motos a week and races nearly every weekend. His set lasts all year.
How can that be?????

[Florida 393]

Jay,
That is exactly why I don't fool with o or x-ring chains. My experience in failure analysis and metalurgy tells me these chains will not do me any good compared to the additional expense and stiffness.

When the first D.I.D. chain came in about 1973 I put one on my OSSA Stilletto. It was too stiff for my taste and the lubricant was cooked out in no time. We did not have the exotic lubricants everyone thinks they need then. I went back to Regina chains for my replacements .

Keep the chain lubed, keep the wheel/chain alignment correct and clean it after a race and you are good to go . Glad you picked up on this one. Thanks and have a Merry Christmas.

Bill

[Keetoman393]

How many more times does this horse have to be beat? :

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Keetoman393

How many more times does this horse have to be beat? :

Keeto, the thing is that there is loads of mis-information that gets passed along as fact in these chain and sprocket threads.

Funny how folks can repeat ad infinitum the same old song and dance that a ring chain rocks and lasts far longer than a standard chain, and folks bow down to those sort of comments and state bravo!
Yet, when someone offers differing information, it is beating the horse to death.

I know for a fact that a ring chain...be it X or O or XW or whatever new fangled sealing ring profile you want to use...takes more power to turn it.

I also know for a fact that there are more folks who do not completely understand chain and sprocket dynamics, than those who do.
Most of those who aren't really up on the issue, are taking advise from others that also have not grasped the whole concept.

Ring chains are fine to use...I have no gripes with them. But what I do have gripes with are the reasons folks blame equipment failures.

One of the biggest complaints you will hear is that stock stuff is junk.
Well...how come some have good luck with it and some don't? Does it not stand to good reason that if the equipment was indeed junk, that ALL FOLKS would have the same experience with it? Of course it would...but that just isn;t happening. Some have just as good of longevity with the stock chain as they do with the replacement once the chain does in fact elongate.
There is a reason they had bad luck with the stock stuff...and it almost ALWAYS boils down to a lack of proper adjustment, lack of a good cleaning regimine, and a lack of proper lubrication...both in product and interval.

Folks also state that ring chains will last far longer than standard....
I say it just isn't so. A properly cleaned/lubed/adjusted standard chain can and will outlast any ring chain on the market. Ring chains have a finite lifespan and that is undeniable. Once the lube is consumed, there is no way to replentish it. Not so with a standard chain that can continue to be cared for past the life of a ring chain.
Again, there are reasons for why folks find the need to state these things...and it almost ALWAYS boils down to a lack of proper adjustment, lack of a good cleaning regimine, and a lack of proper lubrication...both in product and interval.

I can state for fact that if you are using any sort of lube that is sticky or gooey...then that is the start of your problems. Even with fantastic care, using the wrong product can spell demise of your stuff. Many also will lube their chain when they clean the bike, but that may be all the lube it sees until next cleaning. A guy who lubes his chain up real well and then rides all weekend long without a re-lube has no business recommending lube or a maintenance schedule. He has no idea what works and what doesn't.


Also, many riders have no idea of what the proper tension is...oh sure they find the information in the manual, or they hear advise on how to tension it properly, but when it comes down to having it proper, often times they will think it's correct, but in fact they have it a wee bit too tight, which causes death to both chains and sprockets fast. Bad adjustment is probably the biggest problem most riders have with chain maintenance.

And I am not passing along information that I have simply just heard...it is information I have compiled over the years. I have tested just about every lube on the market on Timkin equipment. I also get paid to train folks how to properly care for chain drives in industrial settings where folks can't allow bad chain and sprocket care..it means big money to them to be correct and not simply fumble around with anecdotes and mis-information.

I may go against the grain of just about everyone who comments on this issue, but I can't help it. All I can do is provide information that I know to be fact. I will go indepth with it as well, so it won't simply appear as I'm simply dragging it out of my ***.

If folks want to discuss this issue, perhaps they will find (as many others have) that I just may not be beating a dead horse, but rather trying to bring him back to life...he has been fed a bad bucket of crap for years.

[DPW]

Jaybird, Thanks.. for the info. My views have changed since my orginal post on this subject. I'm running a standard DID ERT2 chain on my 450 currently.

[Zero]

Thanks Jaybird for confirming that Xring and o-ring chains "rob" power. And for me, its easily noticeable.

What are some signs that you have run the chain too tight and have problems? And what problems would/could you have?

Thanks for the info!

[Florida 393]

Zero,

If the chain is too tight the first sign for many is the suspension is "bound" by the lack of slack in the chain, ie, rear seems to not move through the arc of motion or seems that the shock shaft is binding within the shock body. The strength of a modern chain is enough to stop rear suspension movement.

As to problems with a chain adjusted too tightly the worst case scenario is the pressure exerted by the lever arm of the swingarm will pull the countershaft hard enough to break the case and trash a transmission. Next would be the destruction of the rear hub at the sprocket bolts, generally but possibly the rear wheel bearings, too.

Less catastrophic would be hard shifting and unwanted wear on the transmission, chain and sprockets. The least thing that comes to mind is a simple chain snap but with the tensile strength of modern, quality chains being very high this is not often the case. The strength of the swingarm and its length as a lever provide a trememdous force on the chain and also, the chain and sprockets as the suspension moves through its arc.

Jay needs to pick up again and go through failure analysis and some metalurgy for the completion of this thread. All my experience is in structural steel and concrete failure.

I'll probably move this to the General Knowledge forum in a few days.

Bill

[Keetoman393]

Jaybird, hold your fire!! That was not meant to be towards you. I was meaning that there are about 20 of these chain threads!

I'm sure you know your stuff well! However, I think we would need a true metallurgist to discuss failures and their causes as well as discuss what constitutes a failure. Many things besides lube and care affect the longevity of the drive chain. I have sat in many meetings with Engineers and listened to their theory on why something failed and then heard the opposite side from the guys in field service that live in the real world. I remember one funny story from a GREAT Engineer that had a good design and we kept having failures. He kept saying "contamination". The guys from the field said "Have you ever seen a drilling site that worked in a dust free environment!?" My point from this? Both are right. Both needed to improve their ways. The Engineer needed to redesign more tolerance into the machine and the field service guys needed to wipe their hands before rebuilding a drill head.

Some people spend all their life worrying about the horse's reigns and forget to feed the horse!

P.S. I run an x-ring chain and have had it for 3 (three) years with that "bad" chain lube. Why do I run an x-ring? I ride in mud and slop, unlike you MXrs do. If I rode MX I would be running a regular chain.

P.S.S. Did I ever tell you that MXrs have such cute bikes?