Ethanol... Good or Bad for our machines?

[scooter842]

I understand that its better for our economy/enviornment, and also its cheaper to produce, and that most of our newer vehicles are being manufactured to run it. However, i have heard that it attracts moisture. Obviously not a huge deal for our everyday vehicles because we drive them just about everyday. What about our bikes? I sometimes mix more than 3 gallons per ride, therefore i usually end up with half a tank of fuel left. Obviously it will attract moisture over the few days that it will be sitting. So basically i will have a bad mixture right? I know its really not that big of deal to drain the gas and add a fresh mixture, but im a college boy, and every penny counts!

Anyways im just currious what everyones thoughts are on this, if it is accurate.
I am contemplating on going with straight race fuel, maybe it will last a while longer and i can actually get my jetting right on. Maybe even mix half race half pump.

[Aus_Rider_22]

Good thread, scooter

Ethanol-blended fuels are popping up everywhere and I hadn't thought how it would effect our bikes til now.

[Woody_393]

I wouldn't use it. Not in my bike anyway.

Everything I have read recently says that it cost almost as much to produce as normal oil gasoline. In fact, they use gasoline in the production process.

You will get MPG with it as well, because it requires more ethanol to make the same power as normal gasoline. From the article I read in the July 2006 Car & Driver basically said it was a waste, and really doesn't gain us anything. At least not at this point in the game. They need to figure out better ways of producing it. This does make the greenies feel better, and it does help (sort of) ween the US and other economies from Middle eastern oil, but at what cost?

I'll see if Car & Driver has the article online and post it here. It was a very eye opening article.

[Woody_393]

Here it is -> Tech Stuff: Ethanol Promises - Features

[scooter842]

Awesome, i read part of it. I will finish in a bit. Definitely allot of info. Thanks woody!!

[Vintage Dave393]

Blah, blah, blah, better for the environment. Better for someone's wallet more likely. Might as well just stick a corn cob in the tank.

Don't use it in a bike, it will require rejetting for optimum performance. Doesn't have the same BTU output as gas (see, it's that science thing again) and requires more volume to produce the same output. We have a station locally selling E85 for around 2 bucks a gallon. Looks good on paper until you realize that you have to burn 20% more of it due to reduced MPG. Totally negates all of the so-called benefits.

If you are going to use race fuel, get the good stuff. Leaded C-12 or if you can use all the power you already have and need more, get some of the oxygenated U-4 or U-2. Don't defeat the purpose of race fuel by diluting it with the crap from the pump unless you are just running race fuel for some additional octane or you just have money to throw away.

There is so much good to be had from race fuel, it's a shame to mix all of the unknowns from the pump with it.

Did I mention that my lawnmower runs best on C12/Maxima 927 and I always make sure to mow on "Ozone Action Days". I also fill up before 6 PM on those days. I'm such a rebel.:kirtwell

[Woody_393]

Theirs no question you are a rebel Dave, a correct rebel, but none the less, still a rebel.

To me E85 is propoganda at its best. Those cool logos on cars make you think it's "economical" and "environmentally" friendly, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. It's no better at all. Not from what I gathered anyway.

[scooter842]

Sounds good. My biggest problem is jetting. Even with the slightest changes in weather (temp/Humidity), im haveing to rejet, and its getting old. I didnt know if the ethanol had anything to do with this or not. It seems that ever since they decided to put that junk in pump gas, i have had more Knocking/pinging denotation/pre-ignition. And its starting to really iritate me. So thats why im considering running race fuel. I can get the VP 110 for sure and i think they also carry the c12. Anyhow maybe i will get it right instead of throwing away gallon after gallon of pump gas that has gone bad in 3 days!

[Woody_393]

Don't they offer normal gas at the pump too?

Though nothing wrong with running some race fuel if you've got the $ or you bike demands it. I hear jetting is a cinch with race fuel.

[MotoMan]

Excellent thread you guys.

I wouldn't run the E85 stuff in anything but a vehicle designed for it...from what I have read it will eat rubber lines/o-rings and all kinds of good stuff if your engine isn't designed to run it.

I have a question though. We have alot of stations in this area that use a 3% mix ethnol....I have ran it in several vehicles and not noticed any change in MPG or anything, but what about our bikes? Anyone try it?

[mtk]

Originally Posted by scooter842

Sounds good. My biggest problem is jetting. Even with the slightest changes in weather (temp/Humidity), im haveing to rejet, and its getting old.

Well, you'd best get used to it because there is no way around it.

Welcome to the wonderful world of carburetors.

A carburetor meters fuel based upon air velocity. Air velocity across the carb is dictated by the gas flow dynamics of the engine and is essentially independent of the density of the air it draws in. However, the oxygen available for combustion in your engine is dependent on dry air density of the incoming air. Dry air density is dependent on barometric pressure, temperature, and relative humidity. {For more information, I suggest a bit of research on the Ideal Gas Law and on Relative Humidity in general.} What this means is that whenever any of the air density factors (barometric pressure, temperature, or relative humidity) change, your carb jetting must change as well. There is no way around this as it is inherent in the physics that make the carburetor function in the first place.

As an added benefit, pump gas is a variable commodity and the changes in the fuel will result in slight jetting changes being required. This is due to slight changes in hydrocarbon ratios and density in the fuel, the explanation of which is something more than I care to type at the moment. This is where race fuel is nice. It is a consistent product so your jetting won't change because of changes in the fuel.

The bottom line to all of this is that you really should record barometric pressure, temperature, and relative humidity in the same notebook where you record your jetting specifications. If you don't, the jetting data is essentially useless.

As for ethanol, the statement "its good for the environment" remains to be seen. Right now it takes more energy to produce it than you get back out of it. (Total energy input, from growing the corn to producing ethanol) It is also less energy dense than gasoline, as Dave pointed out, so you need more of it to get the same power output. It is also incompatible with many of the seal materials used in gasoline fuel systems.

I'm curious as to why you would be throwing pump gas away after three days? You said it went bad, but that is definitely not the case. If you've kept it in a sealed container there is no reason it shouldn't last you several weeks or more, even when stored in plastic. Just don't be one of those people that opens the vent on their gas can to "relieve pressure" whenever the plastic can gets bloated up. That "pressure" is the light ends of your fuel and not something you want to lose. Keep the can in a cool place, out of sunlight, and it won't be a problem.

Why yes, I did work in the petroleum industry.

[vintageguy]

Cant wait for fuel injection to become the norm

[ProAMA725]

Just an FYI, have any of you stopped driving the last couple of months? Me neither. Then why have the fuel prices gone down so much? ANSWER: we were being jacked, and now it is voting season. Now, all I can say, is E85 vehicles are the way of the future. Why, because what we need is an equal alternative. Now corn is less BTU, than fossil fuel, but Brazil has 80% of their vehicles being produced that run on sugar cains etc. Thus, they have less dependence on oil. Here is the whole deal on this. We will never be 100% away from fossil fuels, atleast in the lifetime of us on this board. But to have a 50/50 choice, would make our fuel prices like they were in the 90's again. There are alternatives from corn that give much more BTU's, such as prairie grass, sweet potatoes etc. Even the stocks of corn. But why haven't people seen tons of Ethanol yet. Because the Oil companies will do whatever they can to block it. They even said they couldn't produce the fuel this summer, because they were forced to fast to act on the law that has been in place for a long time. Why don't we tax the oil companies more so we can invest in this. Because "they will invest themselves." Now ask yourself this simple question. If you were a drug dealer making billions every month, and then you had a choice to make your profits decrease to a couple of million a year, would you do that? Comeon... All fuel needs to have up to 10% ethanol. There are other ways, even Gates, you know the rich guy, has invested a lot of millions in this future. So everyone bashing Ethanol has not examined what the purpose is. Not just helping the earth, but to lower price gouging, which has been going on, which should be obvious to everyone who has paid attention. No one is driving less, it actually, everyday, more and more countries and people are driving. We need an alternative, so we aren't getting the shaft.

Back to topic, everyone running any pump gas around the US, from a station, excluding race gas, is running some ethanol. Mobile 1, shell, etc. Up to 10% will not hurt your bike. It is the additive that gives a higher octane.

[Woody_393]

Read the article I posted up above, then come back and let me know if you have the same opinion you currently have.

[ProAMA725]

Originally Posted by Woody_CRF

Read the article I posted up above, then come back and let me know if you have the same opinion you currently have.

Nope, not at all. I will now post some things that say, don't use corn, use other things to make butanol and ethanol from sugar products that have a higher BTU. So it is the future, just it needs more enhancements. Thus, the need for the money. So tax the oil companies and invest in this.

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Fuel Energy
density Air-fuel
ratio Specific
energy Heat of
vaporization RON MON
Gasoline 32 MJ/l 14.6 2.9 MJ/kg air 0.36 MJ/kg 91-99 81-89
Butanol 29.2 MJ/l 11.2 3.2 MJ/kg air 0.43 MJ/kg 96 78
Ethanol 19.6 MJ/l 9.0 3.0 MJ/kg air 0.92 MJ/kg 130 96
Methanol 16 MJ/l 6.5 3.1 MJ/kg air 1.2 MJ/kg 136 104

[Woody_393]

The only problem I see with all of it, is that they USE NORMAL GASOLINE in the production process, and they use almost as much of the normal GASOLINE to produce it as they actually gain from the process??? Tell me how that makes sense?

I agree, it or something similar is the future, but it needs a lot of work, and the initial question was - should I run it in my bike? NO

[ProAMA725]

Originally Posted by Woody_CRF

The only problem I see with all of it, is that they USE NORMAL GASOLINE in the production process, and they use almost as much of the normal GASOLINE to produce it as they actually gain from the process??? Tell me how that makes sense?

I agree, it or something similar is the future, but it needs a lot of work, and the initial question was - should I run it in my bike? NO

Actually it is produced more by natural gas and coal. In fact, if you want, you can make ethanol yourself with logs from the local woods, and if you have a E85 vehicle, you are set, just mix it yourself. Then you have $1 a gallon fuel. You can use things like banana peals, sweet potatoes, grass, etc. (not exactly sure what things you can really use, just listing starch based items) basically, remember back to the future? They just threw stuff in that had starch I think it was. There you go. Same thing, but not going anywhere in the future
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On topic, the 10% I still disagree with harming your bike. I run pump gas from Mobile 1 and I add toulene to boost the octane. That is it. No problems in the heat of Texas.
Edit: This is on 2 strokes, since toulene needs lubricant, thus our 2 stroke oil. I would say 4 strokes, with the valves etc, a no go.

[mtk]

So much BS, so little time....

First off, you really, really need to look up the definition of "fungible commodity" before you spout diatribes about oil companies and the price of gasoline. The price of gasoline in the USA is set by the commodities market, which is a free market that anyone, large or small, is welcome to enter. Oil Companies can no more control the price of gasoline on the street than the weather man can control the weather. If you want to blame someone for the price of gasoline, blame all the traders who ran up the price of gasoline futures. Or you can blame all the Chinese and Indian people who have recently bought cars, increasing worldwide demand for oil (check out that whole "Supply/Demand" thing in an economics book for explanations of why that is important). Or you can blame the environmental idiots who have prevented those same "evil" oil companies from actually building any new refineries in this country so they could increase production capacity (back to that econ book we mentioned earlier). But if you think that the CEO's of a few corporations got together in a room and decided to "gouge" the American public than you're, well, let's just say "incorrect" and leave it at that. Or we could say you're a Democratic politician's best friend.

Next, using natural gas to make ethanol is just plain stupid. Natural gas is used for heating in lots of places. Placing further demands on an already limited resource will only drive up the sky-high cost of natural gas even further. It also just trades one fossil fuel for another, which is hardly a step forward if you want a "renewable resource." For the record the product produced from natural gas and coal would be methanol and not ethanol. There IS a difference.

"Logs from the local woods?" Yeah, THAT is the solution to our long-term energy needs right there....

Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) is the biggest proponent of ethanol in the USA. They also happen to be the nation's largest corn grower. Coincidence? Only an idiot would think so.

Studies done on the total energy costs of producing ethanol, which include planting, growing, harvesting, and then processing the grain into fuel have found that it is an ENERGY LOSER. You put in more than you get out. The farm equipment to plant it and harvest it, the trucks to haul it, and then the energy to process it is all part of the equation. When you balance that equation, the only one who benefits from it is ADM.

The fuel is less energy-dense than gasoline, meaning it takes significantly more of it to get the same power. But best of all, it is incompatible with 99% of the vehicles on the road today. Considering that there are roughly 243 million cars in the USA, that leaves about 241 million of them in a bad way. Oh yeah, I'm probably wrong on the 99% part; it is more like 99.9% aren't compatible with ethanol.

In short....

[ProAMA725]

You are the one who needs to go look into info. First, why do you think there is hearings on if oil companies were gouging us? Yeah, because yes they do control prices at the pump. That is why they made billions every month, and the most of any company ever. Secondly, I asked a question, did you or the Chinese stop driving this month? So go on with how the demand has gone up so much. Oh, but the price of fuel just dropped 50%.
Next, how does buying oil from countries that hate us, help us in any way? Would not buying fuel from american companies help our economy and our way of life. ADM, american. Bill Gates american, and the list goes on.
The things I listed showed that you are off, the BTU's of butanol are almost equal to fossil fuel, and it won't retain water like ethanol.
Even if you burn more fuel to get the same mileage, it is all about price to americans. Thus, if you pay $1.25 for fuel, instead of $3, you still are getting better bang for your buck, while helping the us economy instead of some country that only wants us wiped off the planet.
I think you better go look up how many E85 and alternative vehicles that are on the road in California. It might surprise you. Also, I said it is the future, not today. It is what we will need when our oil supplies run out across the globe from us not being able to ship it due to wars etc. Also, using your local forest. I am talking about making your own fuel. So how are you gonna destroy the forest with the 100 gallons you make.
Lastly, I am somewhat of an environ person now. I believe leaking millions of oil all over alaska and other wildlife places is just wrong, and I don't support it. I do support growing prairie grass, corn, sugar beats, etc that animals can live in, while helping our own economy for once, instead of countries that hate us. It is all about selfishness. This world only cares about themselves. The day is coming that you will see. Plus, alternative fuels are just coming, so get use to it. It is like the 4 stroke. We couldn't stop it, so get use to it.

[HiG4s]

The answer is hydrogen fuels, with hydorgen fuel cells in vehicles, and down the road, hydrogen producing algae.